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Laminitis! First time treating ....

Horse Care
#41

I either get my mares Prascend through my vet or Valley Vet for around $275 (160 ct). My vet is linked to an online pharmacy (Vets First Choice) which routinely has discounts they email out to us. I get both of my dogs prescriptions filled through Valley Vet - never had an issue with them. You can set up price alerts so you are notified when something is on sale.

You should start Prascend at either a 1/4 tab or 1/2 tab (my mare started at 1/2 and we maintain her on 3/4 tab). Most horses will go through the veil so you might need to cut back the dosage then work them up again. You need to test him at least once a year so make sure his numbers are okay (watch out for seasonal rise in late summer/fall as it can give inaccurate results).

As far as the Soft Rides - I always keep another pair available for days when they get wet and need to dry out. Not cheap I know but I wouldn’t leave them off for long during initial stages of laminitis.

And yes check for a bean. That should be done on a regular basis anyways.

#42

So I decided to leave the boots off tonight. The right boot in particular does not seem to go on as well as it has been since we first started with them. The orthotics have little stick-up tabs – one at the front center and one on each side, sort of like clips on horse shoes. I noticed that on the right boot, all three tabs are squashed down. On the left boot, the front one is squashed down. I don’t know if this means Rocky’s foot has grown very quickly (it will be 3 weeks on Monday since the farrier was here), or did I put the boots back on incorrectly last night, or what.

In any event, they are off for the night and I am going to take the orthotics out and soak the boots in the laundry sink with hot water and a smidge of Arm & Hammer detergent and then set them on the front porch to dry tomorrow.

Rocky’s pen is thickly bedded with the pellet-type bedding that expands and turns to sawdust after it is sprayed with the hose. It is so soft and cushy. I read back through this thread and figured if a horse can be kept in a thickly bedded stall overnight without boots, then I can do the same tonight for Rocky so I can get the boots cleaned.

I also called my farrier to ask him to come tomorrow if he can because I am really wondering if Rocky’s feet have grown super quickly. One of the earlier responses mentioned that her horse’s feet grew at a very rapid rate after the first bout of laminitis.

I will feel so much better once my farrier looks at Rocky’s feet. I told Bill that I will get better at this as I get better at this but right now I am learning on the fly!

SCM1959 a/k/a Nervous Nellie

#43

You are doing such a fabulous job for Rocky, well done!
FYI - my pony requires trimming every 4 weeks, his feet grow like crazy after his first and only bout of laminitis over two years ago. For the first 3 months he was trimmed every 2 weeks to keep everything lined up properly.

#44

You wonder correctly :). Hooves do seem to grow faster on foundered horses, for some reason. I am fortunate that I can do my own trimming if I need to, so that was how I kept my horse in his boots until the farrier visits every five weeks.

You might want to ask the farrier about showing you how to file Rocky’s hooves enough to keep them in the boots between visits.

Something else you might consider for the time you have the boots off and waiting for them to dry, is Magic Cushion.

https://absorbine.com/products/hoof-care/magic-cushion/

This stuff is really good. It will stay in a barefoot hoof 2-4 days. You would have to be sure to clean the hooves good before putting the boots back on, as the Magic Cushion will make a sticky mess of the pads:)

1 Like
#45

Okay, I have Rocky’s numbers. ACTH measured 39.7 and my veterinarian says normal range is 9-35 (seems a very broad range!).

Insulin normal is 10-40 and his was 43.13.

Any comments from the smart COTH bunch?

I still do not have the Pergolide.

Rocky’s boots cleaned up fairly well. The pads were really soft and almost gummy when I took them out (I think from the heavy rain we had earlier this week). I dried both the boots and the pads in the warm sun and then brought them in to cool them off (95 degrees again today). The pads seemed to fit better than they did yesterday.

My farrier did not call. I am hoping he will come on Monday.

SCM1959

#46

If you were worried about leaving the boots off when you needed to clean them you could possibly buy a spare set of inserts and just tape them on for the day.

#47

Soft Ride boots aren’t just a giant cushion for the horse to stand on. The company sells different orthotics which support the hoof in different ways. Yes a deeply bedded stall is good but remember the hoof needs certain support during early stages of laminitis. These boots aren’t like the boots that you see everywhere else.

”â€čhttps://www.softrideboots.com/soft-ride-gels.php”â€č”â€č”â€č”â€č”â€č”â€č

#48

@ryansgirl - that is exactly why I was worried about taking the boots off. I know the Soft Ride Boots are a specialty boot and the orthotics are specifically made for therapy. I felt like I was between a rock and a hard place – his feet were beginning to have a thrushy smell, it didn’t seem like the boots (really the inserts) were fitting like they had been, and the boots were wet because of the rain. I knew our weather was going to be dry and I had just re-bedded the pen with lots of fresh, cushy bedding, so I decided to take the boots off.

I do think I will have to order a second set of boots. This will give me two pair of boots, plus two sets of the blue orthotics. Rocky is using the orange orthotics now because that is what the farrier thought was best for the time after the first trim. I feel Rocky will use the blue orthotics longer. If I have to, I can order another set of the orange orthotics ($95).

It doesn’t seem like Rocky is any worse for wear for having his boots off. I noticed that he did lie down twice while the boots were off. He still ate all of his hay and drank well. When I put the boots back on, the little tabs stayed upright and did not fold over and the entire boot seemed to fit correctly again. He stood still for a while before he began moving around again with the boots on. Rocky’s reaction to anything different is always to stand very still and think.

I have been handwalking him each day (except for yesterday when he didn’t have his boots on) so it will be interesting to note how he is moving today after going several hours without his boots the day before.

Next week, I plan to give him short supervised turnout in his paddock (with muzzle on, of course) for 15 minutes morning and early afternoon. I think it will help him mentally to be able to move around freely without being led. He is so stoic and cooperative that I really have to study him to decide if he is feeling depressed. By the time he acts depressed, he is really in a bad way. I am trying to be sure that does not happen. He has gone from being able to free-range on about 3 acres of property to being in this about 16 x 16 foot pen. I think at first, he did not care because of the pain in his feet, but I am getting the strong feeling now that he would like to move a bit more. He is not the type to go nuts and start running around, so I am not worried about that at all.

I also need to figure out what kind of feed to get for him to use to give him his Pergolide. I am going to our feed store today to pick up some other things, so plan to ask their advice and then I can research whatever they recommend. It won’t hurt our pony one bit to switch from Triple Crown Senior to whatever I get for Rocky. The pony only gets about a cup or so anyway – just to keep him from being pony-pissed at being left out.

SCM1959

#49

What feed is he on now? TC Senior is low in NSC and that’s what you want. I use just enough of it for my mares supplements (Bioflax Ultra, Chasteberry powder and High Point Grass vit/min - all by Horsetech). I give my mare’s Prascend via oral syringe. I used to put it on top of her TC Senior - slightly soaked do it would stick but she figured out that trick pretty quickly. I’d be a little leery of asking advice from the feed store. You may get lucky finding a knowledgeable person there but in my many years of horse experience finding that person is few and far between.

#50

TC Senior is his usual feed and he loves it. The pony loves it, too! Of course the pony even loves the hay I scrape up from Rocky’s pen – he will eat it out of the manure wheelbarrow! I believe he is a goat in a pony suit.

It would be nice not to switch his feed. I have printed out the chart from Triple Crown feeds to show to my veterinarian. The Triple Crown Lite and Low Starch both have higher numbers all the way across the chart than Senior, so I am wondering why I would have to change. It is grain free and alfalfa free. It is based on beet pulp. Of course he has not had any of it since August 1st, his last “normal day”.

I was just going to ask my feed store which feeds are the lowest in NSC and then research their recommendations and consult with the vet. Our feed store is independently, family owned and the two men who own it have worked there their whole lives. They know so much about so many things and have really helped me with questions over the years. As a bonus, they are wizards with fixing solar chargers for my electric tape paddock.

I like the idea of the oral syringe for the $$ Pergolide vs. putting the pill on top of the feed. Rocky is very suspicious of change and can tell instantly if something is not right. Just as he stands very still if something is different, he will hang his head over the feed pan and not eat if something is “wrong”. He is perfect about syringing 
 I don’t even have to put a halter on him. He lowers his head at just a touch to his poll and allows me to hold his face and squirt anything into his mouth. He does not spit things out. He is truly such a dream horse in terms of quiet acceptance and cooperation.

Did you see the numbers I posted above? I am interested in what COTH thinks about his test results. 39.7 ACTH and 43.13 Insulin. I don’t know whether to be terrified or what.

SCM1959

#51

Have you read everything and/or signed up for the group at https://www.ecirhorse.org?

  1. Feed- You can find specific recommended feeds on the pdf fact sheet. TC Senior is NOT on the list. I am feeding the beet pulp in order to get my horse to eat the Thyro-L.

  2. Test results- Check out DDT + E- Diagnosis. Read and scroll to the bottom and click on IR calculator tool.

I know very little about the numbers myself, but they tell me that you need to take your horses’s situation seriously and make a plan.

Good luck.

#52

@frisky - I have been reading the ECIR horse site and quite frankly, it has left me very confused. There is so much information there that I feel overwhelmed. Plus, much of what it says about how the horse should look does not seem to apply to Rocky.

I only have the ACTH and the Insulin numbers so cannot use any of the formulas given on the DDT+E section. I will have to ask the vet to send me the entire sheet.

In the Insulin Resistance part, there is a photo of an enlarged/swollen sheath as being a sign of IR. I can’t find anywhere that this is a sign of Cushing’s, yet my vet said that it is. Rocky’s sheath swelling has lessened considerably over the one month that he has been confined to his pen.

I keep reading and re-reading the entire site and keep getting more confused about what to do. I have been told to feed nothing but Timothy Hay and that is what I am doing (Standlee’s compressed bales), yet when I look at the information on the Standlee site, Timothy is second highest in sugar. Alfalfa is the lowest. Yet, I am told that straight alfalfa is not good for him (I will also add that we have had experience in the past that straight alfalfa makes him jumpy).

The site recommends that I supplement with minerals and I don’t know where to buy these minerals. When I look at supplements for horses, they seem to have lots of minerals, and not just the minerals suggested on the site.

So I am back to not really knowing what to do about feeding Rocky.

He can’t spend the rest of his days in this pen. Granted it is a good size, but he is just stuck there and as I said above, I am getting the strong feeling from him that he may be getting depressed. His exercise is non-existent – going from purposely walking all over 3+ acres to basically standing still cannot be good for him mentally.

I have a list of questions for the vet and am hoping I will see him this week when he brings the Pergolide (or the prescription). I want the rest of Rocky’s numbers so I can put them into the ECIR page diagnostic calculator.

This learning on the fly is very hard.

SCM1959

#53

Here is what the Standlee site says about their products:

Protein - Highest to Lowest

Alfalfa
Alfalfa/Timothy
Alfalfa/Oat
Orchard Grass
Timothy Grass

Energy/Calories - Highest to Lowest

Alfalfa
Alfalfa/Timothy
Alfalfa/Oat
Orchard Grass
Timothy Grass

Sugar - Highest to Lowest
Orchard Grass
Timothy Grass
Alfalfa/Oat
Alfalfa/Timothy
Alfalfa

#54

If the horse can tolerate the alfalfa, it has the best protein content and lowest NSC. This is what I feed (as pellets) in their two daily meals to all my horses (along with a ration balancer). For weight gain or maintenance of a hard keeper, I add a senior feed.

As for regular hay (not the bagged type), the only way to know the exact amount of NSC is to have it tested. With bagged hay, go with the lowest NSC, which will be the alfalfa. I used chopped alfalfa - but I’m not feeding it as the only source of hay, but as a supplement to baled hay. I had my suppliers hay tested this year so I could decide whether to go with the grass hay or the Bermuda hay he offers. The Bermuda was 11% NSC, which is fairly low compared to many baled hays. My understanding was to try to stay as close to (or below) 10% NSC as possible.

#55

I believe you can interact with the ECIR people either by blog or email. Do that.

As far as sugar levels in grass hay, that depends more on when the hay was harvested than it does (time of day and stage of growth) than it does on the species. That is why you need to test the hay your are planning to feed.

If you are looking for VM supplement to top dress a mash I understand California Trace makes good products. You need a VM supplement because you cannot feed the volume of bagged feed you would need to get the level of nutrients to this horse.

You might also go to Pete Rameys hoof rehab FB group where you could ask questions. He is the best founder rehab person out there and understands the nutrition side.

And yes with many medical conditions it is possible for a horse or a person to show only some of the symptoms. If you have a good vet they should be your first line of diagnosis, not internet sites. If you don’t trust your vet get a better one.

#56

@Scribbler - you said: “If you have a good vet they should be your first line of diagnosis, not internet sites. If you don’t trust your vet get a better one.”

I do trust my vet, but have been reading the sites recommended by the posters on this thread to try to educate myself more about what is going on with Rocky. Unfortunately, all the reading is just making me more confused. I had hoped the reading would help me ask better questions to my vet so that I make the best use of his time and attention when I have him on the phone or when he visits.

When I went to the Pete Ramey site, a lot of what he says about laminitis seems to be contradictory to what I am doing. For example, he says firm footing and turnout to promote movement, yet I have been told to have Rocky on very cushy footing and keep him in this pen. He gets very detailed about the type of trim the horse will probably need and I do not know if that is what my farrier has done or not. I do know that everyone in our area says my farrier is the go-to farrier for laminitis recovery, so I have decided not to second guess his work. I did not even get to the Ramey site nutrition part because of being confused by the housing part.

My riding instructor has been flat out busy with several students who qualified for the AECs and in fact that is where she is now. She is my second in-person source and actually I like her even better than the vet because she understands how I learn/understand things. I haven’t seen her to talk with her since all this started with Rocky because obviously we are not going to our lessons and because of school starting for my 8 year old and because of AECs prep for her with the other students.

Rocky cannot have straight alfalfa – it makes him very jumpy. He is a very level horse behavior-wise and twice, when we attempted to feed him alfalfa (when he was on stall rest for a hock injury), I thought he would climb the walls and escape over the top. Letting him out of the stall was a nightmare. Eliminate the alfalfa and change to timothy and my regular horse was back. I will point out that over the 12 years that I have had him, he has had to be on rest 5 times and the only time he was anything but his normal self was when we tried him with alfalfa. So I do think he will have timothy, at least for now.

Around here, the hay we can get inexpensively is Coastal Bermuda. That is what I feed to our pony who I swear could exist on air. But, the problem with the CB is that it seems to be somewhat of a problem particularly with older horses as they can’t chew it up properly and then colic becomes a problem. Rocky, at 26, has old teeth and the equine dentist asked me the last time he visited if Rocky was having problems chewing hay and he warned me about CB. Rocky is able to easily eat the timothy and he eats every bit of what I give him.

I am trying to make a plan for how to manage Rocky but don’t feel like I have enough information to make the plan.

I have made a list of questions for my veterinarian which I hope to get answered this week. He is headed out of town for 10 days to take his daughter out west to college, so I want to make the most of my time with him.

For one thing, I am wondering if I need to have Rocky’s blood tested once a month or??? The websites seem to say that I should do this as they mention watching the test results for a downward or upward trend during certain parts of the year. And it seems like the blood tests are the only way to really know if a changed diet is working.

If Rocky does indeed have Cushings, I am curious as to whether there are different degrees of severity of the disease? If he is early onset, is there a way to keep him at this level, or is it inevitable that it will get worse. Also, don’t I need blood tests to know if the Pergolide is working, and if so, when do we do the test.

Is Rocky at the point already that he can never have another blade of grass in his life, or can he be out for a while with his grazing muzzle if we can manage his condition with hay and supplements.

I know I will feel better when I understand all of this more, but right now I am just not sure of how things are progressing and that makes me feel anxious. I think he is doing better, but maybe he is not? I have loved having my horses at home, but this laminitis situation makes me wish I was a boarder.

SCM1959

#57

Yes there are different levels of Cushing’s.

From the Pete Ramey clinic last year I recall that he said soft footing for the initial inflammation then to get them booted up so they were comfortable moving on their regular footing after the laminitic episode was over. Get them padded up so they can move in turnout to rehab the hoof.

Sounds like you are mixed up about different aspects of the problem.

Cushing’s is a whole body disease that affects many things about a horse and can cause laminitis.

Cushing’s can be controlled by medication. Cushing’s can have different severity and different symptoms as it affects the immune system. Cushing’s horses are not necessarily IR.

Laminitis is the acute inflammation stage. Horses need soft footing during this to minimize damage.

Laminitis may or may not cause long term structural damage to the hooves, including founder. Founder is the rotation of hoof capsule relative to coffin bone.

Founder can be fixed in many cases by therapeutic trimming and the use of boots and pads.

If you don’t know what your farrier is doing to address the hooves then you need to find out.

You are the one person who can advocate for your horse and get the farrier, vet, hay dealer, etc all working for the best.

It sounds like you are new to thinking about many aspects of horse care beyond the basics. You might find Julie Gettys Feed Your Horse Like A Horse a useful primer on nutrition for both normal and metabolic horses.

I expect that the various websites are assuming more of a knowledge base than you have.

It sounds like you don’t have enough knowledge base to sort out the important items from the less important.

#58

Yes, @Scribbler is correct - soft footing for the acute stage of Laminitis - with or without boots for extra cushion. Once the acute phase has passed (ie horse is moving comfortably, able to get up/down easily, not rocking back, etc.), then regular turnout on dirt (or grass if they tolerate that) is good to keep the horse moving around.

If Rocky can’t tolerate alfalfa, then that is obviously out as an option. I guess Bermuda varies a great deal by region. The Bermuda grown here is the finest (thinnest) stemmed hay I can get and its the only thing my senior can eat without quidding. Although the mixed grass hay I have right now looks almost identical to it in stem size.

Some bagged hay products have added molasses as a binder. So I’d carefully check labels or web sites for actual ingredients. The product I use has I think has canola oil to reduce dust.

#59

Bagged alfalfa is NOT always the lowest NSC. Look up the values of Triple Crown forages. Grass is 9.7 and the alfalfa blend is 14.6

#60

SCM - no you don’t need to test his blood monthly. And personally I wouldn’t test from August until early January due to the seasonal rise which can give inaccurate results.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/seasonal-rise.php#targetText=Seasonal%20Rise,horses%20with%20PPID%2FCushing’s%20Disease.

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