hi everyone - I haven’t followed this entire thread and I don’t mean to derail the conversation, but thought you all may be interested to know that there is a simple way to protect yourself from fraud in horse sales - www.equineexchange.com (I am an attorney and one of the co-founders). Fraudulent horse sales and hidden commissions are extremely common. After witnessing the same scenarios play out time and again - misrepresented horses, hidden commissions, huge financial losses and broken dreams, etc. - , my partner and I created an online horse sales platform that’s like the title company in real estate - it ensures you know where you’re money is going and that every detail is covered and documented. Buying a horse is a huge emotional and financial commitment - in this way it is an investment and should be entered into carefully and well-documented. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have - feel free to message me.
I submit that your argument is crazy, because allowing amateurs to sell horses for a profit is about the only way that a talented and poor amateur can afford this sport.
It is kind of a head scratcher… That would mean there would be no Ammy division at all if selling a horse for profit means you can no longer be an Ammy. Think about it. You buy Dobbin, you ride Dobbin for a few years and Dobbin gets more trained (even if it is your trainer doing the miles). Now it is time to move to a fancier horse so time to sell Dobbin. Dobbin’s value increased because of the years of miles so you make a profit. Oh no. Now you have to be a pro?
I agree that simply selling a horse for a profit (as in more than you paid for it) should not in and of itself eliminate competing as an Amateur. I think most of us hope to sell any horse that is still in their working prime for more than what we paid for it. That really has nothing to do with being a professional and, really, nothing to do with how good of a rider you are. That’s what trainers are for.
I don’t know anything specific about Alice other than what was mentioned earlier, which I agreed with a face value. But I may not necessarily agree with that if I knew more specifics.
I do think that some people are not really following the spirit of Amateur vs. Open but at the same time it’s impossible to write rules that would easily define it for every possible scenario, situation or nuance.
And maybe a lot of it is that I have no idea why you would choose to ride as an Amateur when you can beat the pros in the exact same classes. I’d be way more proud of that accomplishment than beating amateurs. Maybe there is an adequate reason to do this for years, with multiple horses, from Training level through FEI. Just not one I can think of.
When we say we sold a horse for “profit” that’s usually not the case. Yes, you got more than you paid for the horse, but how much did you invest in board, training, farrier, vet, dentist, blankets, saddle fittings, etc. I’ve NEVER made a “profit” selling a horse, although I consider the education each has provided me “priceless”.
Here’s an idea…
Instead of dividing the classes by AA and Pro. Divide it by those who have shown above the level and those who have not. So, if you’re showing TL, if you’ve shown first or above before, you’re counted in one division and if not, then the other. Showing second, then if you’ve shown third or above you’re in one division versus the other.
Hard to prove at a schooling show but the records should be available for recognized.
I’m all for having a “closing” for the sale of horses, with a contract, owner present, buyer present, agents present, etc. And the option to buy “title insurance” on the horses. This would solve some problems.
It certainly would save a lot of problems.
alice tarjan is an attorney so I’m surprised this happened if it is true. She, more so than many others would understand how to protect herself
However…she apparently had successful sales through CR in the past, and would have no reason to believe that this sale would be atypical. And that brings up another question: why did CR make THIS sale different ? Why now ?
Yes, but you are missing a couple of points.
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This is a sport and a hobby. It is entirely made up. There is no rule out there that says the “halo effect of money” that rules in, say, the economic or college admissions world needs to be allowed to enter this one. I challenge you to find a logical or metaphysical reason that this must be so.
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Competitive sport is only worthwhile when the field is, in fact, relatively level. That’s why, for example, no one wants to watch a boxing match where one guy has already accepted payment to take a fall; no one wants to watch the effects of steriods compete in the Tour de France, rather than un-drugged people; and it’s pretty boring with the outcome of a horse show class was determined years earlier by the size of the purchase checks of the horses.
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If you look at the history of college admissions, no one has said, “Meh… let’s continue to discriminate against the poor (or female or non-white).” On the contrary, universities have appreciated that intelligence does not correlate entirely with wealth, whiteness and peeing standing up. And so they have created need-blind admissions, affirmative action policies and recruiting strategies at places like Indian Reservations and poor parts of inner cities meant to attract unlikely candidates who would thrive with a college education.
My point is that those who wish to work around that “economic halo effect” precisely because they know that intelligence, rather than privilege, is the characteristic they are after have made an attempt to combat the confounding effects of wealth. And so you’ll need a very different example than the one offered by higher education if you want to say that the hobby sport of dressage just needs to submit to the general problem of wealth being the best predictor of success on horseback. It absolutely can go otherwise. But first we have to be honest and not complacent about it.
At least in dressage you can compete against yourself to improve scores and get various achievement awards and certificates
I’m rolling my eyes. Seriously- if you don’t like the college analogy- use any other one that MVP sees fit.
Horses are a luxury, horse showing even more so. So yes, generally someone with money is going to have access to better horses, more lessons, show more, show at better places- thus in the competition world be more “successful” if that is ones definition. What is so difficult to understand about that? Raw talent propelling people to “the top” is a rarity, usually funded by------------------ people with money.
Complacent? Shakes head. . It is life. Success defined as competition- you need money or some form of backing.
I’m off of the dressage forum because good lord- I just can’t today.
I can’t believe you’d roll your eyes at someone making an argument for a level playing field in a sport. But if that pissed you off and you want to leave in a huff… then Go With God. I don’t know what else to offer you. The two of us just have very different value systems, that’s all.
I for one didn’t get your point. Maybe Pennywell didn’t either. I read your post three times and still wasn’t sure what your view is. It seems like you are saying that you do not need money for sport, and all you need is talent.
I am confused, is there a ‘level playing field’ in any sport?
Some people are just more talented than others. No way to regulate that away.
This is essentially the service we offer at www.equineexchange.com - horse transactions are standardized, professional and easy - while minimizing risk for all. You get a closing package that includes all files relating to the horse (photos, videos, vet records, x rays, competition records, pedigree, etc.), and all of the legal contracts relating to the transaction (Agency Agreement, Horse Profile (seller’s disclosure document), Trial Agreement, Purchase Agreement and Bill of Sale). The closing package can be accessed on our site any time in the future. We do not offer title insurance, but the contracts address passage of title and encumbances on title, etc. so those risks are clearly allocated.
CRTXLaw, the trainers I know would not go for that contract.
Good question! I’m wondering more why people are using this forum to critique AT rather than the people it seem conspired to defraud her
THIS.
All the angst about people who have more money, nicer horses and better trainers is silly IMO. There is no way to truly level the playing field and that’s just life. And it doesn’t affect your own scores one little bit. Placings in a class, sure, but aren’t they kind of meaningless? You can’t control how well or badly OTHER people ride on a given day, or how amazing their horses’ gaits are, which are the biggest factors in dertmining placings. I’ve won classes with a fairly crappy ride, just because everyone else that day had crappier tests than I did. I’ve had the ride of my life and came only fourth, because others were better than me that day.
Ride your own horse, improve your own scores and stop worrying about what everyone else does or has. There will always be people with nicer / better / fancier horses than you, and your horse will always be nicer / better / fancier than someone else’s.
It’s only relevant if you want to compete at international levels, make a team etc. And sorry, at that level you need to have the best horse, training, coaching, etc. You don’t see people trying to compete in F1 racing in a Toyota Corolla, do you?
