If this does go to a jury trial, it would be interesting to see who the jury might be more sympathetic to. Although a lot depends on the evidence, someone said these are two very wealthy ladies, duking it out over an expensive horse. Not sure which side they might tend to side with from an emotional perspective.
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Agree - or relating to other business practices either I dont think.
Horse welfare violations can get you in trouble. Positive drug tests can do it. And precious little else.
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Are there any code of conduct rules for members?
Instead of guessing, read GR625 and GR702.
If this is really the way it went down, thats sad. When I was in my late teens I sold a very nice mare that was jumping 2’9", auto changes, and everything for 2500. I later found out their trainer told them she was $15k and she pocketed that money.
That falls more in to the “more fool you” category than fraud.
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But here is the question: where is the line in the sand? this person’s horse ^^ got sold for 6x what seller was given. In the case of the current lawsuit, horse was allegedly sold for “only” 3x or so what owner was told. Though granted much bigger $…
I think it’s fraud in both cases, but clearly more serious in Tarjan’s case
From Merriam-Webster:
Fraud
a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
- was accused of credit cardfraud
- automobile insurance frauds
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There is nothing fraudulent about buying a horse and selling it on to make a profit. That is not what C Rolff did.
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Alice Tarjan does feel there is fraud involved which is why she filed a lawsuit.
There are plenty of people who buy horses and resell them at a higher pricer, sometimes with additional training and sometimes not. That is fair.
The question here is did Roffman misrepresent the sales price to make Tarjan think it sold for $300k when in fact it sold for $900 such that Roffman could pocket the difference. That would be fraud if it is in fact true.
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Another problem with the CR and AT sale vs. other situations described is that CR actually theoretically was AT’s agent… probably by contract. She had a duty to act in ATs best interests.
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So what is interesting to me with these cases is if it helps the consumer in the long run in making a decision to do business with a certain professional. How many remember the Lauren Sammis horse sale fraud case from about 3 yrs ago? It also had a big headline on Rate My Horse Pro at the time. From the Palm Beach County court online docs, it appears (but I am not sure) it may have settled out of court. The defendant’s attorneys all withdrew then all of a sudden there was a dismissal. There is a fraud case involving Heidi Degele that was settled and you can read some of the info. So you really need to be of the mindset of a sleuth to even hear about a lot of these things. It helps that so many are in “Welly World” and Palm Beach Co has the online court stuff. But unless you know to look there, you won’t find in on a google search unless it is on Rate My Horse Pro.
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This woman WAS acting as agent. She told the buyers, whom I later found out wrote out a check made out to her, and she gave me the money from the “buyer”. She outright lied to these people and was NOT acting in their best interest. They could have purchased this horse for 2500 and paid the proper commission to this agent, instead they paid 15k PLUS commission on the 15k to their agent.
Not sure how that is any different than this case, except speaking of a lot less money in general.
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I remember those cases, and yours too. As a result, I would not buy from or train with with these people. But that’s me. People with a lot of money don’t seem to care about the reputation of those they buy from so long as they can get the horse of their dreams.
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Who’s agent ?
The buyers. She out and out lied to them about the purchase price of the horse, including making up a fake bill of sale saying the horse was being sold by ME for 15k. Ownership of the horse changed directly from myself to the buyer. She was their trainer and agent in their horse search.
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Still… a bit different than the CR AT scenario. In your situation the trainer had the ethical responsibility to the buyer - she was acting as THEIR agent. Did they pursue any action against her? Definitely there would have been a strong case for fraud if she created a fake bill of sale.
At some point, you must have agreed your selling price with her ?
The whether this is right or wrong should not be a question here. This BS happens from back yard $500 horses to million dollar plus horses and has been going on for years. Just because we are all aware of it’s existence, does not mean it is moral, ethical or Legal. It hurts every aspect of the horse business.
In Germany buying horses was just as bad or worse, so it is a practice that has seen no international boundaries. The vet clinic actually took a lot of money to pass a mare too!
there is ZERO way to justify making up a fake bill of sale to hide the selling price from the owner! None. If the seller agreed to the price fine put it in a contract up front.
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Here is an interesting turn of events: http://dressage-news.com/2017/11/15/caroline-roffman-asks-court-to-dismiss-lawsuit-over-horse-sale-on-grounds-no-written-signed-contract/
