Lawsuit in Florida - alleged fraud in sale of Fabrege - Case settled - post #340

Someone who can spend that much in discretionary purchases, purchases that may lose value, without being troubled much about the money.

Someone who would never ask a question like that, because it isn’t an issue for them and the people they know. :winkgrin:

I don’t know anyone like that, but I know they exist. :yes: :smiley:

Prices paid at purchase are the result of the demand for a specific type of thing, and the scarcity of that type of thing. So long as there aren’t many horses available at that level, and there are people who greatly desire such a horse and can afford to pay whatever it takes to get what they want, those buyers will support the price level.

3 Likes

And why not fight it? It looks like she is doing this to out a person who may on a regular basis be screwing people. I say good for her if she can get this done. Settling is too easy for that gang of crooks.

7 Likes

Y’all are absolutely silly, thinking you had to actually answer that!:smiley:

I know people like that, I am actually friends with a rather wealthy lady. But she told me the value isn’t in what you spend, it WHAT you spend it on.

So it seems ridiculous to people like myself to spend that kind of money when I can get a really nice, well-bred, well-trained horse for a fraction of that.

There’s “nice, well-bred, well-trained” and there’s “internationally competitive nice, well-bred, and well trained”. Let’s not pretend otherwise: horses that can compete in grand prix classes internationally and be competitive are, with a very few exceptions, in a completely different stratosphere as far as prices go.

13 Likes

Because you probably don’t have that level of discretionary income. And again there’s national GP quality and international GP quality.

It has nothing to do with knowing a “rather wealthy lady.”

@Bogey2 - I completely agree that the plaintiff is well within her rights to fight this thing out, and that this case certainly looks like it will end up revealing quite a bit about the con games that at least 1 (likely 2 or 3) well known Wellington “professionals” of dubious reputation have been engaging in. Likely this lady wasn’t the only victim. Not even close.

Frankly, when wealthy folks get duped by con artists… in truth, when ANYONE gets duped by con artists… it’s embarrassing and upsetting. Victims frequently cut their losses and move forward quietly, if they can afford to do so. Or, they do pursue certain legal remedies, but settle privately because that is OFTEN the most practical thing to do for the victim, and the best way to actually recoup lost funds. The inherent problem with cutting ties and walking away, or private settlements, is that the con artists get to go along their merry way (if they can afford to pay the settlement) and maintain their public facade of being some sort of respected “professional.” Inevitably, when questioned on rumors about past business relationships that went south… the con artists do what con artists do, and spin yarns that cast themselves in the most sympathetic light possible. And sooner or later… they are on solid enough footing reputation wise to find a new naive client to fleece.

The plaintiff in this case though… Ruthann Green… is not representative of the usual victim when it comes to these sorts of situations in the horse world. :uhoh:

The whole story is actually almost so wild, that it seems like it’s straight up fiction. They (RRS almost certainly, and possibly Caroline as well as Ben) seem to have PRESUMED they had found a wealthy, naive and lonely older woman, who might be an easy mark to con in terms of getting her to front the OVERWHELMING majority of financial capital required in order to obtain an international quality Grand Prix jumper… all under false pretenses with respect to the horse’s purchase price, etc, and the capital others in the relationship were contributing to the effort…

But instead they chose a woman with a documented criminal history involving a serious appetite for revenge, and solicitation of murder.

:eek:

Anyway, that’s pretty much my whole interest in following the news on this case at this point. Because I am a true crime buff, and find these sorts of stories interesting, and this one has so much going on, it seems beyond the realm of possibility. I’m wondering how the whole situation ends. Certainly hopefully without anything terrifying like murder for hire this time. But otherwise? If these people really were trying to run cons on trusting clients and personally profit in amounts in the hundreds of thousands?!? That’s pretty horrible. They are lucky not to be going to jail.

Maybe the elder Roffman can afford to financially bail everyone out of this situation if the plaintiff takes this all the way to trial, and wins a substantial sum plus damages and attorneys fees. but from the looks of public financial filings at present… it seems far from a certainty that he is in a position to bail everyone out.

Rick Silvia almost certainly was NOT going to be the fortunate recipient of any sort of bailout by a wealthy relative. And I think it’s now pretty clear to anyone following this that he was never a Rockefeller. So call me crazy, but it’s a safe bet that the Rockefeller family won’t be donating funds to help him out of this mess either. I have no idea if he was an excellent rider or trainer or not… supposedly he earned his USDF Gold medal. But regardless of his record as a Dressage rider, it seems quite clear that Wellington is better off without him hanging around all winter, looking for new clients, and partying with socialites, getting involved in car wrecks in other people’s Maseratis… who knows what else.

Bottom line, there are plenty of really talented, hardworking, and FAR more ethical professionals in both the Dressage and Jumper communities who could, and would, do a far better job on behalf of wealthy clients with big dreams who wish to spend money on top quality horses. The fewer crooks there are in the industry, the better it is for the honest and talented folks out there, who work really hard but still struggle to make a decent living in a tough industry with very high overhead and very high risk.

4 Likes

About the prices of the horses involved…

everyone is making the point that when you are talking about INTERNATIONAL quality Grand Prix horses… either in terms of Dressage or Jumping… these prices aren’t out of the ballpark.

But about that… Lebron du Molin is a 13 year old gelding, and will be turning 14 this year I believe. He’s obviously an exceptional horse… but at the time these folks pitched this deal to Ruth Green, the horse was 11 going on 12. He’d competed in Europe extensively during 2017, but mostly at the 3* level I think. Did not finish better than 5th from a quick look at things. Additionally, according to the lawsuit, the horse had some sort of tendon issue.

Yet this group advised Ms. Green that a fair purchase price for this 11 yr old gelding (going on 12) who wasn’t 100% sound and had finished no better than 5th all year was $900,000? And that after Ben Meredith competed him at WEF and Tryon, they would be able to sell him for millions?

And they drew up paperwork saying Ms. Green owned a 40% share of the horse… yet she paid $400,000?

As of yet we don’t know the actual purchase price paid for Lebron du Molin… I don’t believe… but it definitely wasn’t $900,000. He didn’t compete until December of 2018, and then BM did attempt a few outings with him at the 4* level in 2019… the horse did not perform very well.

So I think it’s safe to say that he was NOT a good bargain for the price paid. Far from it. And not a great investment opportunity. Maybe I am incorrect… but that’s what I see. I doubt the horse is going to get more sound, or have much left in the way of a competition career at the top level of Grand Prix jumping during 2020, much less 2021.

1 Like

What DO have is the common sense not to be insulting to someone I know nothing about, nor to assume I know the level of anyone’s spending ability on this board.

I prefer to spend my money on things that have a certain value to me, as do others, I am well aware of that.

From the snide, snarky remarks regarding this off-hand (I was being cheeky) comment, I see why some of the people I speak to lately think horse people are rude and arrogant, and dressage riders in particular.

I really find it hard to understand why when people aren’t speaking face to face with someone they tend to be so rude.

1 Like

Could you maybe formulate some sort of notification system so that you aren’t needlessly insulted in the future?

Because really, what you posted meets all the criteria of a written question. From my perspective there’s really no way for people who aren’t you, or aren’t very close to you, to understand that you didn’t actually expect an answer.

Internet strangers are likely not very close to you and thus, unable to read your personality online.

So, maybe an asterisk, a little number in the corner, or a % symbol, in future? Or just, you know, type your reply instructions right out. “All I have to say is, WHO SPENDS THAT KIND OF MONEY ON HORSES? (And NO, I do NOT expect nor anticipate an answer. Any silly attempts to explain something to me that I already know will be seen as rude, snide, snarky, and worthy of discussion with my non-horsey friends.)”

Maybe something like that next time?

Just a thought. Cheers!

9 Likes

This. And seriously? If I had that kind of money to spend on horses? I completely would! I never will, and that’s ok, but my husband jokes regularly that if I won the lotto, my trainer would find out before he did! He simply asks that we make sure to hit some really nice culinary hot spots on our imaginary European horse shopping trip…

6 Likes

I’ve not heard of most of the people involved in this case because I live an ocean away under a rock. But, there are many successful international level riders over here that actually place in the top 3 and/or win on horses that are not nearly so expensive/were not bought for that amount.

The horse has an ok record and an injury. @Virginia Horse Mom outlined this well. It’s not a horse that blows my socks off. But I’m not the one spending the money so it doesn’t matter, really. I full well know and understand how high pieces can get, but I still think this price of $900,000 is bit high. But I’m just average ammy over here.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹It just comes down to personal interests. My horses have never been incredibly expensive. I’ve always been able to spend more than I did, but I just never did. I aspire to do well, but not be at the top of the sport, or in the spotlight. So that’s a difference right there. It’s a whole 'nother league out there. If someone wants to pay $1 million dollars for a International level horse, or $1 million dollars for a three legged spotted mule, it’s their money, their choice, their life. But I do find it satisfying when a good con is exposed and the person that was conned goes after the people he/she was conned by.

3 Likes

It’s probably because we are not speaking face to face that you think my comment is rude. I did not realize your question was rhetorical. There have been many people on this board that look down on others BECAUSE of how much they pay for a horse.

I can’t imagine paying that much for a horse but if I could afford to do so AND ride it you bet I would!

1 Like