It has come out that people believe placing a thumb down/dislike on a social media or YouTube video, or I presume placing a dislike on anything on the 'net, is considered bullying. To me that option definitely runs into freedom of speech (or maybe expression) and the personal perception of things posted. Is putting a thumbs down on a vid of someone committing a crime considered bullying the criminal?Is it bullying to place a thumbs down or dislike on a post on any version of social media for pics/posts on controversial societal subjects? Am I bullying a person for placing a dislike on a pic of a truck with fake, uhm, manparts, hanging off the trailer hitch?
Isn’t suppression of those freedoms (freedom of speech/expression I mean) a form of bullying in and of itself?
Suppression of free speech is a different and bigger problem than bullying, IMO.
But I can’t understand the logic in calling a YouTube thumbs down (or Reddit downvote or whatever sort of internet dislike vote you please) bullying.
Is there a power differential that is being exploited by a YouTube thumbs down rating? No. Every rater is just another user, and all votes are counted the same.
Is it an ongoing or habitual action? No. You can rate each video once. If you dislike every video a certain user uploads you may respond to them each individually with a thumbs down, but any user can only ever register one mostly meaningless thumbs down for any individual video, and you can only vote on videos you visit.
Is it a source of intimidation or coercion? No. The thumbs down is mostly symbolic. No threats of harm. No specific attempt at influence. No
If lodging a ‘dislike’ vote is bullying in some people’s minds, shouldn’t those objectors be working to eliminate upvote/downvote feedback systems from the internet in the name of social justice? Or boycotting YouTube and other platforms that use this system?
There are currently two different definitions of bullying out there.
One is the more or less “legal” definition which is what you need if you are dealing with this in an institutional setting and you need to be able to distinguish between conflict, single insult, and bullying. There are grey areas but mostly its pretty clear.
The other is how any word gets picked up and used casually, opportunistically, or defensively by people who have no stake in a legal definition. Words used in this sense change meaning with the context, change meaning over time, and are usually used to express an emotional reaction rather than a legal situation. This is the level of definition that needs to take into account questions of free speech, etc., because it is the definition that will have impact and be enforced.
Of course some people will claim that anyone disagreeing with them is bullying. Of course some people will “bully” and then level accusations of “bullying” back at their “victiims.” Just because some people claim something, doesn’t mean its true or even worth taking notice of. Or that there is a legitimate argument about freedom of speech buried in there.
I suppose that there could be an organized campaign of internet harassment in which flooding a social media statement with negative emojis could be part of an organized attack. There are very ugly things going on online these days, particularly when one online community decides to destroy another community. So without knowing (or indeed really caring that much) about the specific case you are alluding to, it’s impossible to say if this is some organized attack or if it’s just some teen with hurt feelings spouting off.
At any rate, principled discussions about freedom of speech are kind of pointless with this last group because their idea of freedom of speech tends to be I get to say what I want, and no one can contradict me.
As a former Middle School teacher, I saw some bullying (and experienced some as a student - ugh Maria!) But I also saw a lot of misunderstanding of some of the dynamics of groups of kids.
Parents seemed to believe it was like the African Plains: There were herds of innocent (antelope) victims being stalked by packs of (hyenas) bullies. In reality, a kid may be a victim in one circumstance and a bully in another - kind of a kick the dog reaction.
And as kids were educated about bullying, some honestly misunderstood and believed that every mean word was “bullying”. And others, unfortunately, used it as a license to annoy and provoke other kids and then cry “bully” if they got a reaction.
Had one student in particular that I recall who would routinely try to intimidate younger students while almost simultaneously filing bullying complaints against peers. He made the mistake of claiming a student pushed and punched him in the cafeteria which had camera coverage. His parent was not pleased to see the footage showing no such interaction!
I see so many people calling ‘bullying’ because people online don’t agree with them, so often teenagers who think they have a ‘special bond’ with their horse, and don’t like being told that you do actually need to have some control over your horse and that cannot always be achieved with ‘loving on him’ I have also see adults call bullying when realists point out that they are living some sort of Walter Mitty life, and they are not the big star that they think they are.
I was the ‘victim’ of a high school type pile on last year, and it did make me feel bullied, it was on another horse board, and started with people not liking a bit choice, and disintegrated into piling on my trainer, my progress, my size, and anything else that they thought they could have a dig out. It really upset me, I am so glad that I have a good strong team of people on my side in real life, who managed to patch me up, and that included an out of the blue phone call from a judge, who told me n no uncertain terms that the only opinion I needed to worry about was hers :lol::lol:
If you are a person who is in the limelight, either because you wish to be, or you have the talent that makes people notice you, I guess you have to put up with a certain level of negative feedback, but that does not amount to bullying.
Is it bullying when someone says that Charlotte has “high hands and holds her horse in false frame, oh and her arms are to straight” or is it an opinion that they are expressing, how ever right or wrong that opinion is?
Bullying requires a power dynamic. I have no power over Charlotte Du Jardin. She doesn’t care what I think.
If I began a campaign of harassment against her online or IRL it still wouldn’t be bullying because I have no power over her. It might be criminal harassment or slander or trespass if I was walking up and down in front of her barn with a picket sign saying “Charlotte equals Anky equals horse abuse” or something equally nuts.
But it wouldn’t be bullying. I’d just be some freaky lone wolf nutter and theyd get a restraining order and deport me out of England.
In this case Charlotte would have all the power and the legal system on her side.
Not all antagonistic behavior fits criteria of bullying.
And as far as online pileups in chat groups part of surviving chat groups is to know when to bow out and not ride a train wreck thread to a firey crash trying to defend yourself.
If you sustain an attack on someone who is incapable of change (even IF they are clearly in the wrong) that is probably bullying. If you are worried something you are doing might be bullying, stop doing it. If members of your group are bullying , distance yourself from them. If you are being sanctioned for attacking someone online with thumbs down, you are probably going too far.
I see many things on COTH, but is it really bullying? If one person has an outlandish view on something is it bullying if people express that they feel you are wrong?
For me, as I said before, bullying takes the next step…
Everyone telling me (as a fictitious example) that my twisted barb wire gag bit with massive curb cheek is a bad idea, I don’t see as bullying, but people tightly expressing their opinion that this is a bad idea.
If they go on to insult everything about you, and your riding etc etc, it becomes more like bullying…but still where is the power element? It isn’t like I have to stay on that thread, on that board, there is nothing that is a ‘power’ thing. You don;t know my real name, where I live, you can’t make my actual life a misery.
When I encountered it I left the thread, contemplated leaving the board, but instead invoked the wonderful ignore system that board has, where the ignored person vanishes completely from your on line life, you don’t see their posts, you don;t see when someone quotes their posts, they just vanish…Now that makes some threads interesting when you can’t see half the conversation…but it lowers the blood pressure
Is it bullying to call out lies, and as I originally posted, false representation of facts? We call out politicians, celebrities, police, criminals etc for the same issues and continue to do so each time more lies and false representations are made.
If you have really been a victim of it, you would never ever say these things, It makes it all seem the same, when if you have been bullied like I have it’s truley traumatic (not here, not relevant to say why/how)
Yes I did, but I don’t happen to agree, doesn’t mean I am bullying them or you, even if everyone on the thread disagrees with the thought, still not bullying…just stating different views, which is how a forum survives…
I’m going to stick up for Manni here. Two threads, one she was seller the other she started was dragged up in the NP thread. What that has to do with NP is beyond me. Then two posters were the most prominate in that conversation. Further more one of those posters bumped up the blue saddle thread. That, in my opinion is going out of your way to be mean to another poster. Now that in and of itself isn’t bullying, but dragging Manni into threads and chiming in on hers just to be snarky is borderline. I am amazed Manni has such an impact on people who live in Colorado and Canada from her farm in Florida.
No thread exists in isolation here, so cross referencing is often done, so I don’t really see an issue, we do not exist in nice divided threads. Should she have been brought up? well other things have come into, been cross posted and discussed, so why not. Sometimes we have to look at a bigger picture, and I often see Manni ‘pot stirring’ so maybe not as innocent as she claims.
The thing is, you can just walk away…I can choose to keep responding, or I can walk away, same as any other poster can on any thread on any board…
If people were threatening to send things to her real life family, to impose and intrude on her actual life, then that is different.
No it is not. Public figures are considered to be fair comment even if they are idiots and incapable of changing that. This is made clear in most libel and slander law.
If you go over the line with celebrities you could be charged with harassment or stalking or uttering threats or trespass or assault. Etc.
The grey area is folks who are not true public figures but have a smaller public profile on line. And one very unfortunate possibility is doxing where a group identifies the IRL ID of someone posting anonymously and begins to harass them IRL or a n their personal social media feeds. That I do think crosses the line. It goes beyond just lively online debate and attacks a person.
Another thing that crosses the line is a denial of service attack where a group cooperates to flood a website or blog with nuisance messages in an attempt to shut it down.
In general if someone gets into a spat on a chat group or social media they have the option of blocking specific users from their view, or of leaving the forum altogether.
In general if you post on a special interest forum asking advice, and everyone gives you advice you don’t agree with, you have two choices. One, maybe everyone else is right. Or. Two, the folks on the chat group are fools and it isn’t worth your time posting there.
Honestly when two adult posters are sniping at each other in a thread and neither will leave the other alone, I don’t see this as bullying. I see people who enjoy conflict more than I do. Both have the freedom to just walk away from a thread or a whole forum.
Over time yes one does get a sense of the online persona, concerns, and actual lived reality of various posters. The search function allows one to confirm these memories and impressions. Not sure how that is wrong in a chat community!
Anyhow posters do get reputations which are not always what they may imagine they look likr or believe they are performing. I am amused when I see this.
But the reason I’ve stayed on COTH is that collectively it doesn’t tolerate fools, posers, or people who want to just stir the pot.
I don’t stick around conformation forums where everyone says I.don’t know much about conformation but his tail is so pretty! I don’t have a lot of time for forums where every post is I just bought my first ever horse and now I can’t catch him. How can I make him love me? Etc.
So I like that in general COTH is straight up and relatively knowledgeable even if that punctures some balloons.
Clearly some take this BB more seriously than others. Holy crackers. I don’t see a need to call out people at every opportunity. That’s all I’m saying. If that gives you joy then have at it.
No offense to Sammy, but I didn’t find a clear or persuasive argument in that post.
“Sustaining an attack on someone who is incapable of change” may constitute bullying in situations where continual negative commentary is being made about things that are beyond people’s control (e.g. physical features, disabilities, socioeconomic disadvantages), of course.
But persistent criticism of the public actions of others (esp. public figures) is not the same thing. Even if the object of criticism is not, in the end, persuaded by the criticism they face (I assume that is what’s meant here by ‘incapable of change’).
The former is petty and potentially harmful. The latter can be an important mechanism for holding people accountable for their actions (including powerful people like political leaders, historically). Lines get crossed now and then on CotH, but the mods are usually quick to shut down things that head into ad hominem territory. Anyone who objects to the tone of a post can also leave the thread or set the poster they dislike to “ignore”.
As for the notion that YouTube thumbs down is an “attack”, some content is justifiably unpopular, and meeting criticism is a risk that one takes when publishing creative content. To my knowledge nobody has been/will be “sanctioned” for YouTube voting and there is no conspiracy to rig the thumbs up/down to manipulate the popularity metrics of the content in question. Not sure what Sammy was getting at with that portion of the post.
I much prefer the directness and humor that characterize a certain segment of CotH to the passive aggression that becomes pervasive when people feel obligated to couch their thoughts in superficial pleasantry. But not everyone prefers to interact in the same ways. The beauty of internet boards like this is that it’s fairly easy to avoid the posts and posters who offend your sensibilities if you so choose.
