Let's Talk Bullying

[Scribbler]

If I were asked to decide if a certain incident that I didn’t witness or have up close information about was “bullying” rsther than just icky behavior them I would need to see extensive documentation from all parties. Or a very clear hypothetical situation. And frankly I’d be disinclined to put the effort in unless I was in some official tribunal or union grievance committee or something.

So I simply cannot respond meaningfully to a question like, is it bullying to hit a dislike tab? By an individual no. As an organized attack by a big group, trying to drive down some one’s Google rating? Absolutely it is an attack and harassment.

Is it bullying to refuse to talk to someone? In most cases no. In some specific school situations though that could very well be part of a campaign of exclusion against a child.

In other words it is not the single specific action that is defined as bullying but the intent and the clear pattern of action.

Little girls can bully with the subtlest cues that no teacher or parent can even see let alone control.

On the other hand men can be incredibly aggressive to each other physically and intellectually, call each other names in Parliament, etc and still actually be on pretty good terms with each other.

It is not the act per se but the intent and the context.

So just dropping rhetorical questions like is it bullying if??? doesn’t add to the discussion much because we can’t say one way or the other.

[KBC]

@Scribbler

So I simply cannot respond meaningfully to a question like, is it bullying to hit a dislike tab? By an individual no. As an organized attack by a big group, trying to drive down some ones Google rating? Absolutely it is an attack and harassment.

.

And where would you draw the line?

Organizing a big attack via internet, involving horse people, very unlikely, we can rarely agree whole heartedly on anything…so a large attack with intent to hurt a Google rating…maybe, but unlikely.

Now a smaller group yes maybe more like minded, but if those of like minds ‘vote down’ something, how many does it tale to be a concerted attack, rather than like minds…

For those who are aware of Dressage Hub…newish to me I admit…they are posting that a certain NP video got the most negative votes of any video they aver posted…I don’t know the figures, so not sure what that means. I DO know that I didn’t care for the video, for something that was supposed to be all about forward, it was sadly lacking. If many people thought the same it is not a form of bullying for them to ‘not like’ it.

[x-halt-salute]

@KBC

Now a smaller group yes maybe more like minded, but if those of like minds ‘vote down’ something, how many does it tale to be a concerted attack, rather than like minds…

I’m not the one you were replying to, but it seems that “concerted attack”, by definition, entails a coordinated effort. If any number of individuals independently downvote something I have a difficult time seeing that as an attack, let alone bullying. If those same individuals conspire to amass a number of downvotes to the detriment of the person being downvoted then that seems like a “concerted attack”, whether the number of downvoters is 5 or 5,000.

Your Dressage Hub example illustrates this well.

[x-halt-salute]

@sammy14

x-halt-sallute you said this ‘‘Speaking of things that verge on ad hominem territory, you might want to look up the ‘guilt by association’ fallacy before you tar and feather every poster who has ever commented in one of the NP threads for the behavior of a small number of bad actors in some other group.’’
(I am not tar and feathering etc lol.That over reaction makes me think what I said re defensiveness. Some of the NP thread is funny and some I agree with,I just feel it’s gone too far, that is ALL.)
In fact by some peoples logic it is not even possible to bully someone online with just words. Hence my response.Maybe I misinterpreted the OP in thinking that her posting history indicated a concern about being seen as a bully rather than an interest in bullying generally. Sorry if that’s the case.

Nice stealth quote. Your objection to figures of speech is duly noted.

Would you care to unpack your statement that “by some peoples logic it is not even possible to bully someone online with just words”? It’s unclear what argument you are trying to refute here. I don’t see that anyone has made this claim in the discussion above.

[Scribbler]

@KBC

And where would you draw the line?

Organizing a big attack via internet, involving horse people, very unlikely, we can rarely agree whole heartedly on anything…so a large attack with intent to hurt a Google rating…maybe, but unlikely.

Now a smaller group yes maybe more like minded, but if those of like minds ‘vote down’ something, how many does it tale to be a concerted attack, rather than like minds…

For those who are aware of Dressage Hub…newish to me I admit…they are posting that a certain NP video got the most negative votes of any video they aver posted…I don’t know the figures, so not sure what that means. I DO know that I didn’t care for the video, for something that was supposed to be all about forward, it was sadly lacking. If many people thought the same it is not a form of bullying for them to ‘not like’ it.

If it involves DH I would need to see independent proof that first they posted something on NP and then second that it got any viewers at all, let alone negative tags. In other words DH statements tend to have a pretty obvious agenda. Like NP, DH personally attacks individuals and then claims they are the victims. DH is deliberately provocative and has at times crossed the line to harassing individuals IRL. Fun thread from last summer on all that.

Is the point that DH is claiming NP has an organized haters club online that flocked to DH to tag his video? And if so am I supposed to be outraged by it? Or is DH gloating that this drives up her traffic?

I would have to say that for both DH and NP, their verified online activity to date has been reprehensible enough that if the internet community is attempting to hinder or discourage them, I see it more as community policing than bullying.

[sammy14]

That’s interesting, I wasn’t aware of the down voting of a NP video on the DH site. Makes sense though.
That there are organized groups on message boards teaming up against certain people is unquestionable in my experience. I’ve been the recipient of PMs doing just that by a poster on this thread, though on a now defunct board . I think that kind of behind the scenes maneuvering is pathetic and I don’t (and never did) want to do it. To claim ignorance that it happens, in real life and on the internet is either enviably naive or prevarication from what I know
I can’t imagine things have changed that much on this board re posters here,considering what goes on in the open , and the same people are here,though I could be wrong.

x-halt-salute, I avoid quoting sometimes because i’m not keen on getting notifications that i’ve been quoted as it’s a bit pressurizing for me. If you feel differently i’ll try not to do it with your posts .Stealth quoting is a new term for me .I’m not really getting the reason for all this hostility though. Was it not you who was advocating for less passive aggressiveness and more directness ? I don’t remember but I though so.
Whatever you think about my posts,and I get that you don’t like them, or me probably, i’m actually free to say whatever I want as long as it’s within the rules.
I’m justbeing direct , short of naming names, which would be unfair in a general topic in my view and I have no quarrel with anyone behaving how ever they want on a BB . My thing is more to say what it is, as I see it.
Whatever! who cares ? LOL.
I think if you read the thread again my ‘‘unpacking’’ would be unnecessary, I can’t muster up the energy right now

[x-halt-salute]

@Scribbler

Is the point that DH is claiming NP has an organized haters club online that flocked to DH to tag his video? And if so am I supposed to be outraged by it? Or is DH gloating that this drives up her traffic?

I would have to say that for both DH and NP, their verified online activity to date has been reprehensible enough that if the internet community is attempting to hinder or discourage them, I see it more as community policing than bullying.

I’m not proud of this, but I just looked up the post in question. The “most hated” thing is just click bait. Not defending the video or claiming that the downvotes are unjust. Not disparaging it outright. Just “If you click out to the YouTube channel you will see some of the comments as to why people don’t like it,” to drive traffic to YouTube.

Down the comments where the conversation inevitably turns to his record of questionable behavior she says “Kind of ironic given that he did a week long anti bullying campaign a few weeks ago.”

And so, beneath a certain rock in our own little dressage world we might witness the phenomenon of filial cannibalism, where an organism devours the neophyte it once nurtured. Probably could have seen this coming.

[x-halt-salute]

@sammy14

x-halt-salute, I avoid quoting sometimes because i’m not keen on getting notifications that i’ve been quoted as it’s a bit pressurizing for me. If you feel differently i’ll try not to do it with your posts .Stealth quoting is a new term for me .I’m not really getting the reason for all this hostility though. Was it not you who was advocating for less passive aggressiveness and more directness ? I don’t remember but I though so.
Whatever you think about my posts,and I get that you don’t like them, or me probably, i’m actually free to say whatever I want as long as it’s within the rules.
I’m justbeing direct , short of naming names, which would be unfair in a general topic in my view and I have no quarrel with anyone behaving how ever they want on a BB . My thing is more to say what it is, as I see it.
Whatever! who cares ? LOL.
I think if you read the thread again my ‘‘unpacking’’ would be unnecessary, I can’t muster up the energy right now

There’s no hostility here and certainly no personal feelings about a stranger like you, regardless of the motives may you try to impute to me. Disagreement is interesting and enlightening in rational conversations and I don’t have any personal dealings with or feelings about anyone in this thread. I simply do not understand the arguments you are trying to make. Or your use of the terms “direct” and “passive aggressiveness” above.

To the point, though, I still have absolutely zero idea what your earlier claim was meant to allude to – hence the request for clarification. If you’re uncomfortable engaging in discourse I’m certainly not interested in forcing you to continue. But as you say you’re “actually free to say whatever you want”, and I’m all ears if you should find the energy to elaborate on your claim that some poster(s) in this thread have advocated for a position that would rule out any possibility of “bullying” in the form of online text.

And yes, if what you say about being solicited to participate in organized harassment is true, many of us are naive enough (or selective enough about our online dealings) not to have any knowledge that this has ever occurred. Perhaps you can enlighten the “enviably naive” about the phenomenon, since you seem to have enough evidence of organized harassment to implicate people who have posted in this thread as participants in the nefarious dealings you’ve been privy to.

[sammy14]

@x-halt-salute

I much prefer the directness and humor that characterize a certain segment of CotH to the passive aggression that becomes pervasive when people feel obligated to couch their thoughts in superficial pleasantry. But not everyone prefers to interact in the same ways. The beauty of internet boards like this is that it’s fairly easy to avoid the posts and posters who offend your sensibilities if you so choose.

There you go .I already said i’m not going to identify anyone, so nope to that.

[McGurk]

Here’s my radical suggestion:

Everyone post in a style and manner that is comfortable for them and consistent with their values. Don’t try to police other’s people posting style and manner; because that leads to long, tedious, substance-less threads and hard feelings.

In practical application, if there is something on this board that you believe crosses the line into bullying or harassment; report it to the mods and let them sort it out, rather than taking on the offending poster yourself, because that is rarely productive and leads to the above mentioned tedious, substance-less threads. Yes, there has been actual bullying on this board, and yes, the mods dealt with it appropriately.

Defining bullying often depends on your point of view, if you’re the bullee or the buller, as it were, or if you are more sympathetic to the alleged bullee or buller. I was once accused of being a “stalker” because I brought up someone’s previous post history, and posters are routinely called bullies for telling posters that they’re in over with head with a horse and need a trainer or lessons. When in doubt, either ignore the poster or let the mods sort it out.

As far as secret groups meeting outside of COTH to form a conspiracy to downvote videos on YouTube…wait a minute. Go back and read that again. And a third time, if it didn’t strike you as crazy enough the first or second time.

I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s suppose that’s true, as silly as it sounds. What good does it do to mention it on this BB? Is it the business of this BB? Or does mentioning the possible existence of the COTH Illuminati just serve as a distraction and to stir the pot?

To repeat: Post in the manner you see fit, don’t try to police other poster’s posting style. Makes for a happier, most interesting board.

[Manni01]

@McGurk

Here’s my radical suggestion:

Everyone post in a style and manner that is comfortable for them and consistent with their values. Don’t try to police other’s people posting style and manner; because that leads to long, tedious, substance-less threads and hard feelings.

In practical application, if there is something on this board that you believe crosses the line into bullying or harassment; report it to the mods and let them sort it out, rather than taking on the offending poster yourself, because that is rarely productive and leads to the above mentioned tedious, substance-less threads. Yes, there has been actual bullying on this board, and yes, the mods dealt with it appropriately.

Defining bullying often depends on your point of view, if you’re the bullee or the buller, as it were, or if you are more sympathetic to the alleged bullee or buller. I was once accused of being a “stalker” because I brought up someone’s previous post history, and posters are routinely called bullies for telling posters that they’re in over with head with a horse and need a trainer or lessons. When in doubt, either ignore the poster or let the mods sort it out.

As far as secret groups meeting outside of COTH to form a conspiracy to downvote videos on YouTube…wait a minute. Go back and read that again. And a third time, if it didn’t strike you as crazy enough the first or second time.

I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s suppose that’s true, as silly as it sounds. What good does it do to mention it on this BB? Is it the business of this BB? Or does mentioning the possible existence of the COTH Illuminati just serve as a distraction and to stir the pot?

To repeat: Post in the manner you see fit, don’t try to police other posters posting style. Makes for a happier, most interesting board.

I know I shouldn’t interfere, but reading this post, I find all the little details and tools used to belittle the opinion or person with another opinion…

First: You assume that that you are fine as long as you only post your opinion and don’t try to police other people. So I would like to question who decides whether somebody polices other people??.. Its very easy to put somebody in a bad position by making assumptions.

Second denying something which does exist and saying that it is silly to even think that it exists is very useful to make somebody look silly Why do you even say said??? I think by now everybody knows that this group exists or existed and I even know some of the people active in that group and I also know some of the topics… So why even bother to try to deny it…

And third, I should report this post and I am thinking about it, because its very personal … You drag me into the thread… Somebody else did it before and I really start to wonder why it is so necessary for some of you to defend yourself and to prove that everything you post in my threads is of course no bullying, because its all my fault…

[McGurk]

Manni,

Responding to your points in reverse order:

Please do report the post if you think that’s appropriate.

I will apologize for mentioning the stalking thing, but honestly, besides you and me, who would know what that was referencing? I just thought it was a good example of how perspectives on the same incident can differ. If you’d like me to remove it I will. I think the example of people who are offended by being told they’re in over their head and need a trainer are just as valid, so again, I’ll delete that reference if it’s offensive. (Interesting perspective, though - calling someone a stalker isn’t offensive, but mentioning that it happened is?)

Second denying something which does exist and saying that it is silly to even think that it exists is very useful to make somebody look silly Why do you even say said??? I think by now everybody knows that this group exists or existed and I even know some of the people active in that group and I also know some of the topics… So why even bother to try to deny it…

All I can say here is, well, you’re better informed and better connected than me. I’m in contact with people from this BB in real life, some on FB, and there’s a FB group for COTH users with green horses; but I am not aware of this conspiracy group. Though it’s a lousy conspiracy if the member list and topics are being shared outside the group.

But the bigger questions are, Why do you care? Is it your business? If people are talking among themselves offsite, what does it matter? It’s not against the terms of service, right?

That’s actually my answer to your first point.

So I would like to question who decides whether somebody polices other people??.. Its very easy to put somebody in a bad position by making assumptions.

Focusing on what’s being said outside this forum is a great example of policing other posters rather than posting something of substance.

[trubandloki]

@McGurk You make some amazing points in that post.

I would like it more than once if that was an option. Great job!

[KBC]

@trubandloki

@McGurk You make some amazing points in that post.

I would like it more than once if that was an option. Great job!

i second that…and I’m kind of shocked that anyone sees any of it as reportable…colour me confused.

[KBC]

@Manni01

And third, I should report this post and I am thinking about it, because its very personal … You drag me into the thread… Somebody else did it before and I really start to wonder why it is so necessary for some of you to defend yourself and to prove that everything you post in my threads is of course no bullying, because its all my fault…

Thus is interesting to me, I thought that McGurk made a great post, and there was nothing in it that made me think of you, sorry you are not that important! I was quite shocked to read your response, and your opinion that it should be reported. Maybe I’m part of a clueless minority of one, and there is a whole bunch of people who read it like you did…and here we get to another issue, people who feel like they are a victim of bullying when nothing of the sort was intended…

[trubandloki]

@KBC

Thus is interesting to me, I thought that McGurk made a great post, and there was nothing in it that made me think of you, sorry you are not that important! I was quite shocked to read your response, and your opinion that it should be reported. Maybe I’m part of a clueless minority of one, and there is a whole bunch of people who read it like you did…and here we get to another issue, people who feel like they are a victim of bullying when nothing of the sort was intended…

You are in a clueless minority of at least two, because I am right there with you.

After reading Manni’s post I actually went back and read McGurk’s post because when I read it I never saw anything that screamed Manni so I figured I missed her name in it somewhere.
But no. It is not there at all.

You make a great point about people insisting they are a victim of bullying when that is not even close to what is going on.

[Jealoushe]

Some people seem to want to be the victim.

[x-halt-salute]

@Manni01

Second denying something which does exist and saying that it is silly to even think that it exists is very useful to make somebody look silly

If we all stopped commenting about our beliefs or knowledge just in case a stranger might be able to misinterpret them as casting an unflattering light somewhere else, there would be nothing left to talk about. Might as well close up the board and go home. Or, as McGurk seems to be suggesting, we could all cope with a little disagreement here and there and let the mods handle truly bad conduct while we have interesting discussions.

I don’t understand the hard feelings about a post that is just trying to encourage better conversations and a more collegial atmosphere.

[x-halt-salute]

@trubandloki

You make a great point about people insisting they are a victim of bullying when that is not even close to what is going on.

And that brings us full circle on this thread.

[Manni01]

@trubandloki

You are in a clueless minority of at least two, because I am right there with you.

After reading Manni’s post I actually went back and read McGurk’s post because when I read it I never saw anything that screamed Manni so I figured I missed her name in it somewhere.
But no. It is not there at all.

You make a great point about people insisting they are a victim of bullying when that is not even close to what is going on.

Well its amazing how many people are clueless and nice and polite… And its funny that you don’t remember because when it happened some people even changed their sig to “proud to be a stalker” because they thought it was funny… I am sure this is all very harmless and funny and I did not report McGurk because it all is very harmless…

And thank you to McGurk to admitting that I was right…