Let's Talk Bullying

[Manni01]

@McGurk

Where did I admit to researching you? You called me, and several other posters, “stalkers” because we referenced your previous post history. I remembered your previous post history because it’s outrageous; I didn’t have to research it!

So let me get this straight: You think a joke title of “Proud Stalker” is more offensive than calling someone a stalker in the first place? (which has criminal overtones, by the way) Whose “research” and “crime” is rememisbering stuff you posted before?

Please refer back to my initial poster where I discuss how perspective can influence your view of who is bullying and who is being bullied.

so isn’t referencing previous post history researching??? What else would it be??? If you look up something about somebody you research him… otherwise you would not even be interested in previous post history…

[KBC]

@Manni01

so isn’t referencing previous post history researching???

Nope, next question

[Pennywell_Bay]

I have a good example of a bully instructor.

A long time but younger student (13 maybe) was riding a horse she wasn’t familiar with, was new to the barn but had already bucked a few people off. (good lesson horse, right?)

Student was hesitant to canter it, it had dumped one of her friends the week before.

I was waiting with my kid and her pony outside the ring (we were in the indoor). Instructor laid into the kid, telling her she needed to take up a different sport- maybe golf, she’s being a pansy, and go ride with X (another instructor at the barn whom she doesn’t like) who will not push her to do new things.

Now- I agree with being pushed outside one’s comfort zone at times. This wasn’t a pep talk. This was nasty. My face said it all because someone said to me “uh huh. I can tell by your face you totally agree”.

“No. I don’t agree with humiliating a child to inspire them .”

And we didn’t go back to that barn for months and not until I said my mind about the situation.

THAT is a bully instructor.

[AnotherRound]

No. What, do you think you post something and nobody is ever allowed to go back, find it and refer to it again? And what’s wrong with researching? If I want to look a someone’s posts, I might go read all of them. What’s wrong with that? And if I am speaking about something and remember someone’s posting history and go find it and cite that post, what then? Its what a discussions bulletin board does, its one of its functions. You can go look at old posts.

[sammy14]

No? No what , is it or is it not researching to look up someones posts? That was the question Manni asked.

[trubandloki]

@Manni01

so isn’t referencing previous post history researching??? What else would it be??? If you look up something about somebody you research him… otherwise you would not even be interested in previous post history…

You imply that people have to go looking and they simply do not remember.

If you simply have something in your brain, that you remember, is that researching? I do not research every time I add 2 + 2, I just remember that it is 4.

[trubandloki]

@Pennywell Bay I agree, that is a great example of an instructor that is a bully! Wow!

[KBC]

@trubandloki

I do not research every time I add 2 + 2, I just remember that it is 4.

Looks suspiciously at Trub “Are you SURE?”

[sammy14]

I don’t know how to multi quote so am ‘‘stealth quoting’’ (is that even a thing?)

WXWatcher seemed to confirm a kid had been contacted by saying ''When we found out we shut that activity down immediately and reiterated that the kids were 100% off limits unless or until they came of age and directly involved themselves.

@AnotherRound

Okay, I’ve seen this little factoid passed around and since I know something about it, I’m going to give lie to that creation, originated by Nick by the way.

Many years ago, when NIck was starting threads about himself here on COTH in guises of other people who called him Maestro, (I know, he’s never really stopped) another horse board picked up on the hilarity of the threads and had their own discussion about it. Nick came onto that horse board too, under some odd pretend name of someone who worshiped him, and then, very oddly, several others of his family members seemed to show up. They were bizzare, and may or may not have been real family members, but one who was pretty straight forward was his oldest daughter, a step daughter, and in her 20’s. She used some pretty foul language and ranted about coming across these kinds of threads once a month on her facebook page. Some of the people on that board went to her facebook page to see what she was talking about, found nothing on her facebook page about Nick, and some of them tried to talk to her, either privately on that horse board or on facebook, and it became clear that she wanted no contact with people about the matter, wanted to sound off, did, and ought to be left alone.

I did not attempt to speak with her. I was contacted by one of his other adult family members, who was frustrated with Nick and did not have anything falttering to say about him, herself. I did not feel comfortable with contact with a family member of his, no matter who it was, and politely disuaded her from a facebook connection with me. All I have ever felt inclined to do was to criticize Nick’s unsafe training methods and hate speech. I have a right to, and will always feel I have a right to.

That’s it. Nobody contacted his family. No child of his has ever been contacted. Nobody to my knowlege anywhere has ever even tolerated discussion about his children. Nobody I know would. His adult step daughter contacted people discussing his training abilities on a horseboard, but that’s not people stalking or bothering him or his family.

Nick, on the other hand, has contacted people’s children. Minors. He’s called them on the phone, threatening them, and grandmothers, called new mothers late at night, threatening them, people who have had nothing to do with him except been horse professionals who have voiced their opinion about the unsafe training he promotes; he’s threatened to take the photos of children and put them on porn sites, and he actually has put sex for hire ads on craigslist using phone numbers of people who have criticized his claims. He’s actively recruited people on facebook to spam Robert Dover’s facebook page because he’s gay and of different political persuasion than Nick. He’s threatened people who are gay with physical harm. These aren’t rumors. There is concrete proof of him doing all of this, and its is all in the hands of police. Its what he does.

Nobody ever has initiated contact with one of his family members. Nick SAYS people have bullied his children, but none ever have. It would be a reprehensible thing to do. I am sure if it had happened, he would crow about it with screenshots and “proof” and he never has. I assume that when his step daughter contacted people criticizing Nick and people attempted to continue a conversation with her about it, he has turned that around to be harrassment of his family. Nobody in that horse forum or any other has ever harrassed his step daughter.

[trubandloki]

@KBC

Looks suspiciously at Trub “Are you SURE?”

You owe me a keyboard and a monitor, thank you very much.

<pulls out her addition tables to make sure she got 2 + 2 correct>

[sammy14]

@KBC

Good question

Ahhh, maybe I shouldn’t put it in the “I wish I had said that” thread, cos it made me laugh.

I am so lost here, not sure what the polite thing was about…I genuinely don’t know why Manni thought that it was all about her.

She didn’t, she said she didn’t .It wasn’t about her at all until somebody else brought her name into it,but since they have, she has the right of reply.

[Scribbler]

@Pennywell Bay

I have a good example of a bully instructor.

A long time but younger student (13 maybe) was riding a horse she wasn’t familiar with, was new to the barn but had already bucked a few people off. (good lesson horse, right?)

Student was hesitant to canter it, it had dumped one of her friends the week before.

I was waiting with my kid and her pony outside the ring (we were in the indoor). Instructor laid into the kid, telling her she needed to take up a different sport- maybe golf, she’s being a pansy, and go ride with X (another instructor at the barn whom she doesn’t like) who will not push her to do new things.

Now- I agree with being pushed outside one’s comfort zone at times. This wasn’t a pep talk. This was nasty. My face said it all because someone said to me “uh huh. I can tell by your face you totally agree”.

“No. I don’t agree with humiliating a child to inspire them .”

And we didn’t go back to that barn for months and not until I said my mind about the situation.

THAT is a bully instructor.

I hated that kind of tough love/psychotic attack instruction style as a kids and would also be appalled if I saw it being used.

However the one person whose opinion counts is the student. Did she feel the instructor was being abusive? And if so did she feel trapped, either she absorbs the abuse or no riding lessons anywhere? Or is she going to move to the other barn next week? If she didn’t care, or she voted with her feet, it isn’t bullying. If she was genuinely upset and undermined but felt she had to stay for this week after week, she is being bullied.

There is a wide range of unpleasant behavior IRL and on line that doesn’t necessarily meet the standards for bullying but is corrosive to civil discourse.

IMHO when I have seen COTH mods intervene it hasn’t been precisely about bullying but about back and forth personal wrangling of the kind that can be destructive to chat groups because it drives away other participants. Or for the slippery slope into libel and slander.

Trying to redefine these incidents as bullying and then debating whether they really were bullying is silly.

I think most of these incidents, the mods are just wading into the field with a longe whip and trying to get players back into individual paddocks before someone kicks the fence down

As far a folks posting on COTH but also being active on other forums, isn’t that totally normal? People that like online communication typically do it a lot. There is a slight layer of anonymity on COTH but why would it be wierd that people who know each other IRL might also post here?

If people come on here and say omg did you see this fb post, then one can assume they are following that fb feed.

Also people come on here all the time with a story about some problem that is first, entirely from their perspective and second, something they have participated in creating.

COTH is a pretty sceptical audience and if almost all COTHers disapprove of NP and DH, it’s because the problems there are so obvious that it’s easy to prove.

I’d never heard of DH but I followed her saga here last summer, and even what was unrolling in real time was unbelievable. It didn’t require me parsing out whether the folks starting the thread had been mean to her in the past. Same with NP.

I think with NP and DH whatever interactions posters had with them IRL or in other online forums, it’s clear that this is not primarily a personal fight.

It’s not like someone saying their trainer ripped them off or the mean girl at the barn stole their brushes.

NP and DH are doing nasty stuff widespread, and any reasonable horse person can see that as soon as they are alerted to it.

Now it is possible to get too invested and obsessive about monitoring this kind of nastiness. Indeed I actually forced myself to take a week or two break from COTH last summer because I was finding the DH thing too interesting! But really that’s a personal choice as to how you spend your leisure time.

I certainly have friends that go into (nonhorse) forums and have what I consider pointless political discussions with trolls, then cthstain on fb how upsetting that is. But clearly for them it is stimulating and feels important and perhaps lets them.hone debating skills.

So if people want to go front line in this stuff that’s a choice. I didn’t mean my backing off was meant to be a condemnation of those who engage with the crazies out there.

But I do think there is a difference between social media personalities that are doing things most of us agree are wrong, and personal vendettas against particular individuals based on individual disagreement.

I also think if people overstep some lines in their communication with DH or NP it’s because those self promoting social media entities are doing the kinds of outrageous things for which fb and YouTube offer no real means of redress. It is indeed a quandary how to resolve such things.

Edited to add: since when is researching a bad thing? In my world it is a term of highest praise! You want everything you think and feel to be verified as much as possible. How you use that research is another matter. If I find out your home address and encourage people to send you dead rats in the mail, that is crossing the line to criminal harassment IRL. But my merely using the online white pages is simply intelligent use of public information.

[KBC]

@sammy14

She didn’t, she said she didn’t .It wasn’t about her at all until somebody else brought her name into it,but since they have, she has the right of reply.

Oh my I am so confused…

I did not make any connection with Manni from McGurks post, I just thought it was a good and thoughtful post.

Then Manni started on about reporting it because of some reference to her that I must of missed, link me to it.

Look, sick person here, full of drugs and feeling that I must of missed something obvious, but I genuinely can’t make the connection here…

[McGurk]

I remember people’s post history; because some posters are memorable. I have a pretty good memory.

If I read something a poster has written and think “Hmmmmmm. I swear they are contradicting themselves; I think they posted something different awhile ago.” and look through their post history. (COTH has a convenient button for that.) that can be considered research.

Remembering versus research is a distinction without a difference; unless you’re taking an exam, in which case, remembering is much preferable.

Neither has a negative connotation. And neither constitutes stalking.

If you don’t want people to remember OR research what you said in the past, delete those posts. COTH also has a button for that.

[AnotherRound]

Yep, Yeppers, yep, yep!

[SendenHorse]

@McGurk

I

If you don’t want people to remember OR research what you said in the past, delete those posts. COTH also has a button for that.

YES!

I remember A LOT OF things. Not just manni.

If you don’t like that we do that, delete posts, don’t post, or be less memorable.

[x-halt-salute]

@sammy14

I don’t know how to multi quote so am ‘‘stealth quoting’’ (is that even a thing?)

WXWatcher seemed to confirm a kid had been contacted by saying ''When we found out we shut that activity down immediately and reiterated that the kids were 100% off limits unless or until they came of age and directly involved themselves.

I may struggle to find anything rational or credible about your conspiracy theory, but I’ll give you credit for being persistent.

Why in the world would this matter to the conversation at hand? Members of a community took action to prevent unnecessary contact with family members of a public figure in both accounts. There is still no evidence that the CotH Illuminati (:lol: still makes me laugh) sent goons to harass innocent children or downvote YouTube videos. Move on.

Back to bullying instructors (or is it “research” to look back at posts upthread and try to right the ship?), I can’t imagine something similar to Pennywell’s story happening to an adult rider. Mostly because adult riders write the checks (vs. children whose fees are often paid by parents who may not observe lessons), and are more likely to move on to a happier lesson program if they were treated that way.

[SendenHorse]

@KBC

Oh my I am so confused…

I did not make any connection with Manni from McGurks post, I just thought it was a good and thoughtful post.

Then Manni started on about reporting it because of some reference to her that I must of missed, link me to it.

Look, sick person here, full of drugs and feeling that I must of missed something obvious, but I genuinely can’t make the connection here…

Manni is like Nick, don’t look too deep and try to understand. Sorry.

[sammy14]

I have no problem remembering OR researching, so it’s just a point of being honest in regards to the silly responses to Manni from people who can’t admit she’s ever right. Anyway…

@McGurk

Here’s my radical suggestion:
mine in Comic sans (lol), can’t make the colors work,sorry.

Everyone post in a style and manner that is comfortable for them and consistent with their values. Don’t try to police other’s people posting style and manner; because that leads to long, tedious, substance-less threads and hard feelings.

Telling people how to post IS policing

In practical application, if there is something on this board that you believe crosses the line into bullying or harassment; report it to the mods and let them sort it out, rather than taking on the offending poster yourself, because that is rarely productive and leads to the above mentioned tedious, substance-less threads. Yes, there has been actual bullying on this board, and yes, the mods dealt with it appropriately.

That has been tried by one of the posters, in fact they’ve apparently had 3! (though who’s counting) threads shut down when the mods agreed,and she’s lambasted for it.So that doesn’t seem to work

Defining bullying often depends on your point of view, if you’re the bullee or the buller, as it were, or if you are more sympathetic to the alleged bullee or buller. I was once accused of being a “stalker” because I brought up someone’s previous post history, and posters are routinely called bullies for telling posters that they’re in over with head with a horse and need a trainer or lessons. When in doubt, either ignore the poster or let the mods sort it out.

As far as secret groups meeting outside of COTH to form a conspiracy to downvote videos on YouTube…wait a minute. Go back and read that again. And a third time, if it didn’t strike you as crazy enough the first or second time.

Calling it crazy is not an argument, it’s just an opinion and a denial .

I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s suppose that’s true, as silly as it sounds. What good does it do to mention it on this BB? Is it the business of this BB? Or does mentioning the possible existence of the COTH Illuminati just serve as a distraction and to stir the pot?

It’s the topic of the thread, and it happens here, so why not? Illuminati has not been mentioned by me,so that’s an attempt to trivialize and deflect by mocking I guess?

To repeat: Post in the manner you see fit, don’t try to police other poster’s posting style. Makes for a happier, most interesting board.

and to repeat , right back at you.

[SendenHorse]

for the 50th bajillion time, I have nothing against Manni,

I am however against misleading, confusing and lying- I have to call it out no matter where I see it. It’s not fair to this board, it’s a good place. I am trying to keep it “good”. that is all.