Lets Talk Custom French Saddles

[AffirmedHope]

I know, because we don’t have enough saddle threads! :lol:

I’m looking into purchasing custom at the end of this year. I think I’ve narrowed down my choices to a Voltaire Palm Beach and a CWD SE02. This will be my first custom saddle purchase so of course I have a lot of questions and nerves :lol: .

What are you thoughts on those two.

I’m not looking to go very fancy. I think I’ll be going with full grain leather (maybe a calfskin seat and knees). I might go with the second skin on the Voltaire. I’ll have to see how I like it when I demo that one. I’m not a pro by any means. Just a full time working chunky ammy who rides 4-6 times a week on her one horse :lol: . Will these options be okay? How much roughly am I looking at between the two? What’s the price difference between the different leather choices?

What about the customer service. I’ve heard nothing but good about Voltaire (aside from the infamous baseball cap thread, which I was totally on Voltaire’s side on), CWD seems to have more hit and miss when it comes to customer service.

TIA!

[AffirmedHope]

Awwww anyone? Bueller? Bueller? :lol:

[vxf111]

It’s just been discussed SO.MANY.TIMES I think people have burnout on the topic.

Find out who the reps are because the experience rises and falls on rep honesty/quality/experience/power with the company.

I find CWD’s “restocking” policies and fees ridiculous and therefore would never buy a new one. Our Voltaire rep, while lovely, told several people in the barn their saddles fit when to me and my independent saddle fitter, they were sitting so far from level on the horse’s back that it was kind of nuts. I think both saddles have quality leather and are pretty items once made. I’m just not sure I could ever go down that path because I really care about saddle fit, true fit-- but if I did I would buy used so I knew what I was getting.

[Scribbler]

People go custom because they trust that will get perfect fit. But IME saddle reps will over promise on that to get a sale. If your horse happens to be a good fit for the tree on that saddle, great. If not, you pay $5000 to $10,000 for a saddle that can never be an optimum fit.

Second hand not only saves you money, it can help you get a better fit than custom!

That said if you are after French saddles I see a lot of gently used CWD and Voltaire for sale by individuals. Is that because they had a big surge in popularity, or because they never fit the horse, or because they wear out fast, or because they are being bought by people with more money than sense who get a new saddle every year? Not sure but I find it interesting what dominates the second hand market. A few years ago around here it was Schleese dressage saddles being sold on "only used three months, doesn’t fit horse.’

[staceymc]

I really, really love my CWD. Super comfortable and very secure for me. Horse seems to go very very well in it too.

However, as vxf111 said, I think a tremendous amount depends on your rep. I already knew the 2Gs tree shape was a good fit for my horse, having tried a couple of borrowed ones on him and had it looked at by our barn manager (who is very knowledgeable about saddle fit). Our rep was great; super knowledgeable and helpful. And when my horses’ topline changed after a year (we got him much fitter and got a lot of pudge off him) - she sent the saddle back to CWD to be re-paneled. For no charge. I do realize not all have had the same good experience and that’s a shame.

[OutsidersOpinion]

I’ve had great experiences with Voltaire. I ride in Voltaire and most others at my barn ride in CWD, and I hate riding in their saddles. They’re heavy, hurt my butt (just me?), and put me in a bad position even when they are similar to my personal saddle. My voltaire has held up wonderfully, has come perfect every time I’ve ordered custom, and hold up to daily wear and tear.

I have the palm beach with calfskin seat and knee rolls. Not sure about prices but usually turn around time with Voltaire is surprisingly quick. I’ve had the same rep for many years and great customer service. CWD seems to have a high rep turnover which makes fixing problems down the road more complicated. I think next time I get a saddle I am going to try the blue wing and see if it makes a difference in my horse’s training.

[findeight]

Keep in mind it’s not really custom made as made to measure boots are and it’s only going to be as good as your fitter/ rep. So take care not to be snowed by the brand name. You need a rock solid return policy if it doesn’t fit well, in writing, from the maker not the rep.

Or buy used so you can try it out before paying not to mention avoiding the loooooong wait between order and delivery.

[AmmyHunter]

I ordered a custom CWD because I needed an uncommon configuration and couldn’t find anything used and had a great experience. Even with that, if I could find a used one in great condition I’d buy used to know exactly what you are getting and to not have to wait. Voltaire PB was the other one I liked, but it was running about $1k more than the CWD and I was very happy with the SE01. A friend just ordered a Voltaire and was quoted 14 weeks for it to come in. The rep is really key, so local experiences are the most relevant.

[Bogie]

@Scribbler

People go custom because they trust that will get perfect fit. But IME saddle reps will over promise on that to get a sale. If your horse happens to be a good fit for the tree on that saddle, great. If not, you pay $5000 to $10,000 for a saddle that can never be an optimum fit.

Second hand not only saves you money, it can help you get a better fit than custom!

That said if you are after French saddles I see a lot of gently used CWD and Voltaire for sale by individuals. Is that because they had a big surge in popularity, or because they never fit the horse, or because they wear out fast, or because they are being bought by people with more money than sense who get a new saddle every year? Not sure but I find it interesting what dominates the second hand market. A few years ago around here it was Schleese dressage saddles being sold on "only used three months, doesn’t fit horse.’

This! I know way too many people who spent a fortune on saddles that don’t fit. I only buy demo saddles or used so that I know it will work. Lots of folks love the demo . . . but then find their “custom” saddle doesn’t fit as well.

[AffirmedHope]

Hmmm used does seem to be the way to go. If I Buy a used one, will the company of the brand that I buy be willing to make minor adjustments to it if needed?

[Pennywell_Bay]

I bought a CWD- but my rep rocked (she’s now moved on). She helped me look at various different brands new and used.

I spent the money because 1. I hadn’t had a new saddle in 20 some years. 2. I HONESTLY didn’t have the time to look at so many different saddles. I was traveling and I just pulled the trigger.

I’m pretty thrifty and I love a good deal on used items (thank you, dad ). Circumstances prevented it for the timing of my saddle but I am very happy.

My saddle came in relatively fast, omg so beautiful, comfortable and perfect BUT my rep kicked butt.

The only issue was my name plate- my name was spelled wrong. But during the whole saddle process and name plate fiasco- CWD OFFICE in Ca and France were extremely good at communicating with me. The new rep had sucked. I believe we have a new one now.

[vxf111]

What kind of adjustments do you have in mind? These are foam filled and there’s no real adjustment possible save for removing and replacing the entire panel?

[findeight]

@vxf111

What kind of adjustments do you have in mind? These are foam filled and there’s no real adjustment possible save for removing and replacing the entire panel?

This. If the underlying structure, meaning the non custom fitted tree, does not fit the horse, it’s never going to fit. You can try to pad or shim or whatever but it’s never going to be a " perfect" fit. Only the panels and flaps are " custom". That’s why the rep is so important including being willing to say they don’t have a tree that can be made to fit some horses.

Thats a big reason to try the actual saddle you are going to buy on your horse before committing. Also the reason any I know have had to sell " custom" saddles that just did not fit their horse and could not be modified to fit despite months of back and forth trying. Horses with irregular top lines, high or low withers, asymmetrical shoulder shape or short backs seem to be the hardest to get right. Despite promises from the rep and manufacturer. Because the underlying tree which cannot be modified just never fit that horses back.

Unless your horse has a back shape and length that falls with the range of “normal”, you need to be very careful buying a " custom " saddle without trying it for a few rides…often that’s how riders find out their horse has a back that’s outside that normal range. Saddles don’t fit.

[IPEsq]

Adjustments will be hit or miss. Depends on how much change you need from the used one but you’re looking at at least $500 to modify the panels.

As for which one one to go with, I agree that it would come down to which rep for your area seems like they’d do a better job. Might be worthwhile to take a look at some they’ve sold recently in the area.

That said, don’t be dissuaded by all of the bad reviews. You can probably make it work either way. I was not much of a fan of our previous CWD rep’s fitting ability. She was good at resolving other customer service issues / quality control. So, I had an independent fitter come out for one of my appointments so they could put their heads together on options, since my horse seemed to like the 2Gs tree the best of several I tried. I was able to get something horse liked.

We we have a different rep now, and the saddle has had to be refitted a couple of times due to horse growing. So far so good, and the new rep is much better about giving me something else to use if the shop is backed up.

I also really like our Voltaire rep. When horse was growing out of th CWD, I tried some Voltaires in case we weren’t going to be able to make the CWD continue to fit. She was really fantastic. Ultimately, staying with the 2Gs tree won out for the horse.

Right now I’d be fine going with either rep, so I’d pick whatever the horse likes better most likely. If there is a clear discrepancy in service between your reps, that would be the deciding factor for me.

[HJdaydream]

@AffirmedHope

Hmmm used does seem to be the way to go. If I Buy a used one, will the company of the brand that I buy be willing to make minor adjustments to it if needed?

Typically yes, but you have to pay for it. I think Voltaire will put new panels on, but it’s $700. Still could be a good deal though- compared to buying new. If you want the saddle to come with the tree warranty (10 yrs) you need to buy used FROM Voltaire.

I bought a new custom from Voltaire last November. They take 12-14 wks. I needed a hard to find flap configuration, and my horse needed some extra foam added in places to make it a good fit. I was a bit skeptical, but the tree itself seemed to work for him, and they ‘pad’ up the saddle during the trial with different shim thicknesses so you can feel what you will be getting once the panels are made specifically for your horse.

All Voltaire’s come with calfskin seat/knee rolls standard. The grain option is about $5k plus whatever the sales tax is in your state. The calfskin is $700 more, and worth it IMO, I adore my saddle. The buffalo is even more… I can’t remember exactly since I didn’t go that route. I live in TX, and the sales tax was close to an additional $500 I believe. So… $6300ish was the total once all said and done.

I tried CWD as well and didn’t find them nearly as comfortable or as well balanced for my body shape. Just my 2 cents!

[vxf111]

Unless I’m mistaken none of these saddles are truly custom. They are made to order with your choice of options but they’re not built on a unique tree designed for only your horse based on tracings. They offer certain options as to tree, flap, panel, and cosmetic finishing and they’re building what you order based on what the rep thinks will fit. Which is why the rep is so important. Most of them have no training outside of sales training from their brand, I have yet to find one with any kind of independent saddle fitting training/experience. The job is mostly sales so that tends to be their background. A good fitter is with his or her weight in gold but they’re hard to find and even harder in the French high end saddle market

[findeight]

@vxf111

What kind of adjustments do you have in mind? These are foam filled and there’s no real adjustment possible save for removing and replacing the entire panel?

This. If the underlying structure, meaning the non custom fitted tree, does not fit the horse, it’s never going to fit. You can try to pad or shim or whatever but it’s never going to be a " perfect" fit. Only the panels and flaps are " custom". That’s why the rep is so important including being willing to say they don’t have a tree that can be made to fit some horses.

Thats a big reason to try the actual saddle you are going to buy on your horse before committing. Also the reason any I know have had to sell " custom" saddles that just did not fit their horse and could not be modified to fit despite months of back and forth trying. Horses with irregular top lines, high or low withers, asymmetrical shoulder shape or short backs seem to be the hardest to get right. Despite promises from the rep and manufacturer. Because the underlying tree which cannot be modified just never fit that horses back.

Unless your horse has a back shape and length that falls with the range of “normal”, you need to be very careful buying a " custom " saddle without trying it for a few rides…often that’s how riders find out their horse has a back that’s outside that normal range. Saddles don’t fit.

[findeight]

@vxf111

Unless I’m mistaken none of these saddles are truly custom. They are made to order with your choice of options but they’re not built on a unique tree designed for only your horse based on tracings. They offer certain options as to tree, flap, panel, and cosmetic finishing and they’re building what you order based on what the rep thinks will fit. Which is why the rep is so important. Most of them have no training outside of sales training from their brand, I have yet to find one with any kind of independent saddle fitting training/experience. The job is mostly sales so that tends to be their background. A good fitter is with his or her weight in gold but they’re hard to find and even harder in the French high end saddle market

That is correct. It all boils down to the correct tree, the other stuff is just hung on the tree. If the saddle won’t fit because it’s the wrong tree for the shape of it’s back or it’s got an irregularity, there’s nothing to be done to fix that. And, no you don’t get a do over, you pay for stuff that won’t change anything if the tree fit is wrong.

[Scribbler]

As a further wrinkle, the independent saddle fitters tend IME to be trained to work with wool flocking, and prefer it and recommend it. I have a good saddle fitter who has reflocked and tweaked my saddles. But she steers me away from foam. I suppose she could get foam and make a panel of some kind but I don’t know if she’d have access to whatever the proprietary foam is that CWD or Voltaire use.

So if you need a foam panel altered it pretty much needs to go back to the shop and be altered long distance. With a wool flocked saddle the fitter can stuff it up a bit right at the barn and check it on your horse.

I think with foam saddles people might end up resorting more to shimmed saddle pads to fix things.

[alohajumper]

I don’t normally post on the forum but I do have something to add about CWD. A rep came out (all the way to Hawaii) and I ordered a 2 G - this was in 2016. Yes it took several months to get but when it arrived it fit both me and my horse well and I was very happy with it - over time the keeper for the stirrup leather started to thin and wear (it is metal covered with leather) 2 years later it came off- I called CWD Burbank and explained the situation and they responded that they’ve found sometimes the metal piece was a bit sharp and wears - they immediately sent a UPS label and I sent my saddle off - no cost to me- I also explained that I originally wanted the hunter cantle cover and they said they would take care of that as well…so after they received my saddle (the end of last week) I call today (Thursday) to see what the time line will be- and they are finishing it up today, it will be sent off and I should get it back Tuesday!
I have nothing but good things to say about the customer service - after 2 years I would have expected to pay for the repair or at the very least pay for shipping - but no- So to me my custom CWD was worth every penny paid - I also note that my original rep took a LOT of time fitting and had me and my horse in a variety of CWD demos to try- she watched us on the flat and jumping…I estimate she was with me for a half day.