prepares for all the twisted knickers The only way to level it is to have it be like in eventing. One rider shows the horse at the show if you are going for a championship. No classes for the trainer. Everyone can save the all the reasons why hunter riders (and jumpers to a lesser degree) need pro rides 
. I get it. My background is in hunter.
27 Likes
I mean… you’re not wrong. This would probably prevent some of the mismatch in horse talent/rider skill level.
8 Likes
I am not saying don’t let a pro ever school or show an ammy’s horse.
If going to qualify for a champ end of year division for Ammies, don’t have a pro show an amateur’s horse at the same competition as the qualifying class- it kind of undermines the spirit of those classes
Championships are designed to highlight the ability of the amateur rider and the partnership they’ve developed with their own horse. When a pro is actively competing or schooling the horse in the same environment ( at a show for a qualifier), it gives that pair an advantage in terms of ring familiarity, preparation, and polish that other amateurs don’t have.
It blurs the line between amateur and professional competition and takes away from the purpose of the division. And not even skill level? Remember when it used to say “suitability of horse to rider” in hunters? I don’t do the hunters anymore, but I don’t recall seeing that in the specs recently (could be wrong). Without that safeguard, it becomes even more important that horses in amateur divisions are prepared and shown exclusively by their actual riders to keep the playing field level when we are talking end of year champs.
12 Likes
Amateurs like myself work full time and maybe can’t get to the show until the morning of my first class. I always have my trainer show the 3’ Green division as the warmup since I physically cannot be at work and at a show at the same time.
My bigger concern is the growing trend of trainers finding amateur pilots for their strings of client sale horses, then having that amateur pilot qualify numerous horses for the purpose of qualifying for indoors and finals. The horses can then be sold or leased at a higher value as qualified horses. When one amateur rider is qualifying numerous horses that they do not own or lease - but simply show to qualify and earn points - there is a problem.
11 Likes
I was really addressing the idea of “leveling the playing field,” and I don’t think that’s realistically possible.
To your first point, the ardent defender’s response (not mine, just repeating what’s often said) would be: then don’t aim for a year-end qualifying division. You can still go for HOTY, Zone awards, PTO, etc. It depends on what the end-of-year qualifying is for—if you can’t make the schedule work, then you may not be able to go for certain championships. Again, that’s not my personal stance, just a counterpoint.
On your second point, the same counter-argument I hear (again, not mine): why is it a problem if an ammy has the money and time to show multiple horses and qualify them? If it’s not in the AO division, people shrug it off—“no issue (wink, wink).”
Personally, I don’t think true “equality” in this sport is achievable. If you close one gap, another will just open. JMO.
12 Likes
Your whole comment is chef’s kiss. In my opinion (and again, this is all just chit chat folks, I don’t work for USEF it’s just a fun conversation to have!) this
To your first point, the ardent defender’s response (not mine, just repeating what’s often said) would be: then don’t aim for a year-end qualifying division. You can still go for HOTY, Zone awards, PTO, etc. It depends on what the end-of-year qualifying is for—if you can’t make the schedule work, then you may not be able to go for certain championships.
Is really what I mean, especially for this “Amateur Hunter Championships.” I’m not saying that my proposed concept should be applied across the board, but I think if USHJA is going to have a championship that is truly meant to “promote and support USHJA’s Amateur membership” then I would like to see the qualifications narrow. There’s so many other avenues, like those mentioned in your comments, that folks can qualify for.
Amateurs like myself work full time and maybe can’t get to the show until the morning of my first class. I always have my trainer show the 3’ Green division as the warmup since I physically cannot be at work and at a show at the same time.
I also work a traditional 9-5 and unless I take PTO, I can’t ride for the entire show week. But if I were intentionally trying to qualify for a championship and the restriction was such that that meant no pro rides, I’d probably just take the PTO. Alternatively, many venues offer local shows at the same venue as a rated show (obviously not the same weekend); maybe a rule is that you can’t do pro rides at a rated show where you could qualify for the championships but local shows don’t apply.
Personally, I don’t think true “equality” in this sport is achievable. If you close one gap, another will just open. JMO
Unfortunately I agree. It’s fun to spitball ideas like these but at the end of the day, I think equity would be an uphill climb.
3 Likes
I think T Wilson’s post is great!
1 Like
I don’t think this would solve the problem of your person working and not being able to get there during the week at a show unless there was arranged trucking to get their horse to the show the same day as their classes. Otherwise Dobbin will be standing in his stall at a show all week. Unless your rule about not trainer rides only means showing.
I guess this would depend on how much PTO one has and how much it takes to qualify for the championship show.
Very well said!
1 Like
I don’t think there is a way to level it because of the variables of money, time, and talent. As a wise (and fairly wealthy–the family business allows for ownership one of the top junior hunters) said to me, “there will always be someone with more money.”
I don’t know that not allowing someone else to ride the horse at an event that’s part of a regular multi-day show is the answer because the barn is likely to haul all the horses there on Tuesday and, if the amateur rider can’t get there until Friday, the horse won’t get ridden. Not allowing showing might work OK, especially at shows where you can get into the rings to show, as the pro could ride the horse in the ring where it would eventually show. Yes, you can argue that the amateur rider can just take PTO, but not every profession has PTO. I am a retired community college professor. If we couldn’t teach our class it got cancelled, or we hunted around for a colleague who could teach it and then traded with them. Thus, they got to teach a few extra classes for you one week and you got to teach extra classes for them in repayment. If you were legitimately sick or had jury duty or something, the college would pay for a sub, but it was still going to be a colleague taking on an extra class as there was no pool of subs.
My friends who show in the 51/o adult amateur division have either paid a lot of money for a fancy horse, ride really well on still very nice horses, or have resigned themselves to getting mostly non-primary-colored ribbons. One friend gave up and no longer shows. I switched to jumpers…
4 Likes
It is not.
there will always be someone with a fancier horse and/or more time to spend in the saddle.
Life isn’t fair, and I’ve learned to be happy having a good ride where my horse and I did our best.
20 Likes
I know for the Gladstone and Jump Seat final for adults, there is a rule in place saying only the competitor can ride the horse for the 24 hours before the class starts. That always seemed like a fair compromise. IIRC, the Gladstone ran on a Friday last year and the Jump Seat ran Saturday/Sunday. So if you’re an adult who works, you could still have a pro ride your horse up until Thursday or Friday. So they could do a class on Wednesday if needed. Something like that could work for other championships too.
14 Likes
A portion of a professional’s income is derived from showing customers’ horses. You’re suggesting they take a cut in pay to accommodate you? I don’t see professionals jumping on board.
Oh, don’t be ridiculous. A professional being unable to do a pro ride at a horse show doesn’t mean that their day rate goes away, it doesn’t mean you’re out of their program, it just means they’re not doing a class for you on your horse.
I like that proposal too @outside_leg!
6 Likes
It should truly be a standalone event, friday - sunday. No open classes, but friday is a glorified schooling day. Wed - Fri could run horsemanship and care clinics and symposiums and any other education you can throw at the eager amateur. Tack fitting, wrapping, clipping, health, shoeing, feed, etc. Host the Adult Horsemanship Quiz Finals there instead of with the junior finals. Have dinners and socials. Basically, summer camp for adults. Education and ribbons, if you’re lucky. In a rotating location that eventually takes a tour of all the country’s historic showgrounds if you attend yearly.
We’re never gonna level the playing field, but we could certainly make the playing field more fun.
20 Likes
Seems like thoroughbred divisions or separate awards / placing for TB’s would enable lower budget riders to play in the hunters on a more level playing field given that one can still acquire a quality TB for a reasonable price. Yes, I know they exist and atleast around me the numbers seem very low so probably not a glowing endorsement for the need for them (although I do think if they were offered at 2’6” instead of 3’ they would be more popular).
9 Likes
I’m not sure you understand how professionals do their billing.
Not all professionals do their billing the same way, so maybe the professional(s) you deal with bill differently than the professional(s) that other posters deal with.
5 Likes
But taking PTO isn’t super realistic - what if it took you several shows to qualify? What about professions who cannot take off - think healthcare, surgeons (oral and cosmetic surgeons have significant number of surgeries on Fridays so the patients can heal over the weekend, for example).
I think if you could be one and done this could make sense, but even the Big Eq horses can get shown by pros prior the qualifying classes, so I don’t see this as anything that would ever be implemented. You will surely start to see more shamateurs then.
3 Likes
Is it in-person or virtual now? I did it twice when it was virtual and ultimately decided it wasn’t much fun that way and gave up. I understand that they did it virtually since amateurs are less likely to be able to go off someplace for a few days. The test also drove me a little nuts but I get that it’s written by people who don’t write tests for a living.
I was there for the start of HQC and had a hand in some of those questions 
Appears they’re having finals at Midway U (KY) in November this year. A delightful place for that.
2 Likes
