there is just as many horses sold to slaughter at major tracks as there is from cheaper tracks…the trainers may tell you a different story but that is a fact…the only difference from most trainers at belmont and evangeline downs is money and opportunity
Thanks Rigoletto and the other rescuers!
Thanks to all of you for saving as many horses as you can. If I can ever get our building on River Street sold here, I’m going to quit boarding and buy a “farmette” in horse country and contact you to get 2 or 3 OTTB “wild and crazy” mares. Love those horses. My old girl “Kick and Howl” was smart and beautiful and hot. Want 2 or 3 just like her, but with diesel and all costs, must wait to have my own place, as board for my Hessen is high and costs more to get to the barn than his board is! So cannot replace my girl till I get out of boarding and go back to having horses at home like when I was growing up.
So don’t find my perfect mares yet, they can be old and arthritic, and barren, I don’t believe in breeding since I can buy a horse cheaper than I could breed and raise one, but must be smart and not alpha, but spirited, and opinionated, I had the combination of Round Table and War Admiral, so my mare had definite opinions about what was to be done, how and when.
Thanks for doing all the rescues, it is so hard to see the ones who will die, and not be able to afford to save them. And things will get worse as the economy tanks.
Another Chance For Horses
Christy Sheidy and Another Chance For Horses are awesome. I have rescued MANY broker horses through her. I currently have a daughter of Wolfe Power due to foal any day!
mares
The TB retirement fund and canter and all the TB rescues have a lot of geldings available, but I want a couple of the old mares who raised and then were broodmares, the ones who used to be sold for 500 at fasig-tipton auctions when the mares were old and barren. guess they still are sold, but maybe to the kill buyers right at the track for 275 a pop??:eek:
[QUOTE=aspenlucas;3188944]
Christy Sheidy and Another Chance For Horses are awesome. I have rescued MANY broker horses through her. I currently have a daughter of Wolfe Power due to foal any day![/QUOTE]
I would say that it doesn’t make much sense to be, on one hand, saying one is rescuing and, on the other hand, breeding yet one more horse, in a world awash with unwanted horses, unless I am missing something here?
Playing musical chairs with horses and saying we are rescuing seems to be of questionable logic.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3189047]
The TB retirement fund and canter and all the TB rescues have a lot of geldings available, but I want a couple of the old mares who raised and then were broodmares, the ones who used to be sold for 500 at fasig-tipton auctions when the mares were old and barren. guess they still are sold, but maybe to the kill buyers right at the track for 275 a pop??:eek:[/QUOTE]
Hey, when you’re ready to take on a lovely former TB broodmare, give me a shout;) I have a couple of beautiful former broodmares/racehorses rescued at auction available for adoption…And they really are loves. 
[QUOTE=Bluey;3189168]
I would say that it doesn’t make much sense to be, on one hand, saying one is rescuing and, on the other hand, breeding yet one more horse, in a world awash with unwanted horses, unless I am missing something here?
Playing musical chairs with horses and saying we are rescuing seems to be of questionable logic.:([/QUOTE]
Maybe she was rescued in foal?
[QUOTE=Blueshadow;3189238]
Maybe she was rescued in foal?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I was wondering, but have not heard yet.
We either are part of the solution or have to agree that there is no easy solution and keep doing what we want in our horse industry.
I just think it would make more sense to try to be honest with ourselves on what we decide to do.
I know what I am speaking about, since I had those same discussions with myself in the early 1970’s and eventually decided that we can use our animals in many ways, short of direct abuse.
We can take risks with horses, running, jumping, just starting them under saddle, hauling them down the road here and there, breeding them and know that sometimes it ends up badly.
Taking risks is part of life and all alive will eventually die.
I just see many today wanting to have it both ways, that is why my question.
Rescuing and breeding is antagonistic, when the main reason there are horses to rescue is just because of too many horses.
It doesn’t seem to be being very honest with ourselves, or maybe we are not wanting to think the situation to it’s real end.
Wearing ethical blinders is never becoming.
This is not true. I am not saying that horses never leave the big leaque tracks for a killer auction but more horses that leave NY (for example, my home circuit) turn up hale and hearty on lesser circuits, and often remain so for years. There are two kinds of dropdowns seen alot in NY. First are the stakes barns that sell through the claiming ranks to unload horses that don’t pan out. (Little Cliff belonged in this category.) Many of these types are very successful, even in some stakes at lesser venues. These operations are making room for new young prospects. The second is low end claimers who reach the bottom at NYRA, which is about $10, sometimes $7.5k. A horse that can win at $5 or $6k will find a niche on a circuit with that level and as long as his needs are met, he can be a profitable horse.
I’m not trying to imply that NY horsemen are saints and lesser level horsemen are sinners but when you are at the top of the “class chain” there are many levels below for a basically sound, fit (but slower) horse to make a home for himself. When he can’t win for $3500 whoever has him at that time tends to get stuck. Bottom claimers are like a game of musical chairs russian roulette. No one wants to be left holding the broken horse. This is why horsemen like Zito and his wife Kim and others at the upeer echelon who CAN help (and do, alot) try to tag horses papers and spread the word and raise money.
Bluey I agree, and prefer that people NOT breed rescued horses. Strongly prefer. With TB broodmares, in particular, they are usually at auction or otherwise dumped because they/their offspring have no commercial value in that industry. Why would anyone perpetuate that?
There are some difficult issues though with rescued broodmares that have had no training for many years (and I would note, by contrast to an earlier post, that not all of them that are dumped are old or barren - I’ve seen many that are young and reproductively healthy, or in foal). Is it better to place them in a loving home with someone that wants to breed them for, for example, another sport or for their own personal horse, or is it better to let them live out their lives utilizing scarce donations on a TB retirement farm - when there is no other placement forthcoming? I don’t have the answers. It’s tough.
[QUOTE=Blueshadow;3189341]
Bluey I agree, and prefer that people NOT breed rescued horses. Strongly prefer. With TB broodmares, in particular, they are usually at auction or otherwise dumped because they/their offspring have no commercial value in that industry. Why would anyone perpetuate that?
There are some difficult issues though with rescued broodmares that have had no training for many years (and I would note, by contrast to an earlier post, that not all of them that are dumped are old or barren - I’ve seen many that are young and reproductively healthy, or in foal). Is it better to place them in a loving home with someone that wants to breed them for, for example, another sport or for their own personal horse, or is it better to let them live out their lives utilizing scarce donations on a TB retirement farm - when there is no other placement forthcoming? I don’t have the answers. It’s tough.[/QUOTE]
Those unwanted horses is what slaughter has been for, for centuries now and still is in most of the world.
Repeating, everything alive will eventually die, sooner or later, in one form or another, hopefully after a good quatity of life, for that one individual.
That it be eaten by a predator in the wild, shot, euthanized by a vet or slaughtered, it is still death and each one way has it’s place, if we like it or not.
I wonder about the ethics of DEMANDING we as a society provide for horsey welfare and eventual disposition.
We can keep a few horses some of us own and keep around past their useful years, at our personal cost. That is not in dispute.
In a world where we don’t have the resources for it, as you say, to demand we do so with all the unwanted horses out there stretches the imagination, when there are other ways we have traditionally disposed of those horses.
We are very close to not being able to justify using animals, if we start restricting our uses past outright abuse, just on someone’s likes and dislikes.
I think it is absurd and sure against common sense to breed, train and show big lick horses, moving so grotesquely with artificial aids, big pads and cut and harnessed tails.
I will never get over the shock of seeing them stabled, handled and shown at Madison Square Garden, right along with the jumpers.
I am sure others feel like that about racing, especially when injuries happen soo publicly as it did with that mare or Barbaro and others, or jumping horses hurling over those monster fences in puissances, or over such solid big cross country fences, etc. etc.
There is much we do with horses that is objectionable to someone and to me, the way I feel about some of it is similar as others feel about slaughter.
Still, if we want to use our animals in the way we consider appropiate, we need to let others do so, no matter how :eek: :eek: :eek: we are about what they do, as long as they are not abusing horses directly.
If we don’t, we are walking into the hands of the animal rights people and giving up our rights to do what we think is right with our animals, one little step at the time.
I say lets not ban slaughter, big lick horses, racing, anything someone finds objection to, but keep working to make it better.
[QUOTE=Bluey;3189928]
Those unwanted horses is what slaughter has been for, for centuries now and still is in most of the world.
Repeating, everything alive will eventually die, sooner or later, in one form or another, hopefully after a good quatity of life, for that one individual.
That it be eaten by a predator in the wild, shot, euthanized by a vet or slaughtered, it is still death and each one way has it’s place, if we like it or not.
I wonder about the ethics of DEMANDING we as a society provide for horsey welfare and eventual disposition.
We can keep a few horses some of us own and keep around past their useful years, at our personal cost. That is not in dispute.
In a world where we don’t have the resources for it, as you say, to demand we do so with all the unwanted horses out there stretches the imagination, when there are other ways we have traditionally disposed of those horses.
We are very close to not being able to justify using animals, if we start restricting our uses past outright abuse, just on someone’s likes and dislikes.
I think it is absurd and sure against common sense to breed, train and show big lick horses, moving so grotesquely with artificial aids, big pads and cut and harnessed tails.
I will never get over the shock of seeing them stabled, handled and shown at Madison Square Garden, right along with the jumpers.
I am sure others feel like that about racing, especially when injuries happen soo publicly as it did with that mare or Barbaro and others, or jumping horses hurling over those monster fences in puissances, or over such solid big cross country fences, etc. etc.
There is much we do with horses that is objectionable to someone and to me, the way I feel about some of it is similar as others feel about slaughter.
Still, if we want to use our animals in the way we consider appropiate, we need to let others do so, no matter how :eek: :eek: :eek: we are about what they do, as long as they are not abusing horses directly.
If we don’t, we are walking into the hands of the animal rights people and giving up our rights to do what we think is right with our animals, one little step at the time.
I say lets not ban slaughter, big lick horses, racing, anything someone finds objection to, but keep working to make it better.:)[/QUOTE]
Actually I was trying to make an argument about a horse that WAS wanted, and about a specific choice confronting a TB rescue: to keep and maintain, or to adopt out to a good home in which it may be bred. Oh well.
Does anyone know if Preciado or LA Buzz stables sold the horse off for slaughter or what? i’m from the philly area and am really interested to know how big of scumbags these people are.
those who rescued the horse, can you tell if structurally the horse is fit?I purchased his lifetime past performances and he shows being vanned off in his final start.
He was injured
[QUOTE=P_Oed;3193975]
those who rescued the horse, can you tell if structurally the horse is fit?I purchased his lifetime past performances and he shows being vanned off in his final start.[/QUOTE]
Little Cliff was injured in his last race and remains unsound though he continues to improve.
Statement From The LA Buzz Stable
First of all LA Buzz Stable would like to thank the bloggers of the Chronicle Forum about your posts regarding Little Cliff. Without your posts, we would not have known about Little Cliff’s awful ordeal. Since we CARE ABOUT OUR HORSES, we felt the necessity to find out the FACTS, as best we could, about how Little Cliff ended up at the direct to slaughter pen. Because there has been much finger pointing, half truths, implications, mistruths & suggestive connotations at the expense of the LA Buzz Stable, so that others can promote their own agenda, LA Buzz will no longer remain silent. It has been known for weeks, by both the Thoroughbred Times & by Ms. Rigoletto (Diana Baker), that WE DID NOT KNOW about this incident. Ms. Rigoletto has knowingly been playing both sides - you the bloggers, in order to bring her own agenda and individual importance to your attention, & us, the LA Buzz Stable, trusting that she would disclose what she knew. We are unwilling to allow her to distort the facts and slander us.
There is no justice when Ms. Rigoletto can get her editorials posted in the Thoroughbred Times, because of her relationship with Ed Derosa, the staff editor who wrote the original articles, and we to date have been unable to. LA Buzz Stable has found the online article, dated April 15th, quite unprofessional as it never states that this is the way Ms. Rigoletto thought things had occured. The article was worded in such a way as to confer blame on us. Kim Zito is quoted and we are named with the result that one would think that we decided to discard Little Cliff after he ran 7th place in his last of two races for us, because we thought he was useless. LA Buzz Stable finds both articles to be slanted and factually distorted.
These are the facts:
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The rescue groups are very well aware of who the dealers & slaughterhouse people are. But instead of demanding cessation of this practice, all too often, the extent of their involvement is limited to promoting their own agenda, even if it means doing so at the expense of others.
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There is no Zito farm that Little Cliff will be going to. A home has to be found for him. The one inch white sticker on the back of the foal papers listed Rerun’s phone number.
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Slaughter trucks are not allowed on Philadelphia’s Parks premises. Ramon was not present at the time of Little Cliff’s pick-up. There were no altercations.
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To date, there had been no reason for horsemen & trainers to look at a horse’s pedigree papers. Transferring of ownership papers occurs in the Horse ID Office and merely goes from the last trainer’s file into the new trainer’s file. It is common practice that the papers are signed by the Stall Superintendant. If any pertinent information needs to be attached to a horses pedigree papers (like a Coggins test) customarily those papers are left at the Horse ID Office and just attached. Ms. Rigoletto should be aware of that since she has told me that her husband used to train horses.
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In claiming horses, often the claimed horse has problems, but if you’re the owner when the horse breaks down then you’re the one who gets blamed, regardless of how much care you put into your horse.
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Following up on horses once owned every thirty days, as suggested by Ms. Rigoletto, is absurd. It would be an impossible task to expect an owner to do. Perhaps in some ideal world…
LA Buzz Stable cared much & still does care about Little Cliff’s well being. LA Buzz did call Bill Landes of the Hermitage Farm, where Little Cliff was bred, to see if they would be able to take Little Cliff at their farm for the remainder of his life. Unfortunately, they were unable to. We never thought of calling the Zitos as we did not know about Kim Zito’s involment with horse rescue.
LA Buzz Stable has had only good experience with our trainer and had no reason to doubt his judgment or sincerity when he informed us that he had a contact who had a local farm where we could visit Little Cliff whenever we wanted to. Only after Little Cliff had been picked up at the racetrack, did we find out about the sticker being attached to his racing papers which directed the last owner to contact Rerun.
LA Buzz Stable was in the process of trying to find out the whereabouts of Little Cliff when we came upon the article posted in this forum. The LA Buzz Stable CARES ABOUT OUR HORSES & STRONGLY CONDEMNS HORSE SLAUGHTER.
In the past few weeks, we have been working closely with Barbara Luna, who is in charge of the HBPA’S horse rescue initiative at Philadelphia, in order to insure that what happened to Little Cliff does not happen again by providing a safety net for both horsemen & trainers alike.
We have already spoken with other rescue people who would like very much to work with the HBPA office once the HBPA is granted a non-profit status. LA Buzz thinks the rescue people who rescued Little Cliff did a wonderful thing and we heartily thank them.
For those of you who are truly concerned about Philadelphia Park’s retired horses, I urge you to call Barbara Luna to see what you can do to help or, at the very least, to make a donation. Upon the HBPA obtaining non-profit status the LA Buzz Stable will be happy to post where donations can be sent.
The LA Buzz Stable
I am tired as it’s 12:13AM and perhaps I missed it in your explanation, but what exactly did happen? Did the trainer err in judgement about who he “retired” the horse to?
[QUOTE=DickHertz;3219932]
I am tired as it’s 12:13AM and perhaps I missed it in your explanation, but what exactly did happen? Did the trainer err in judgement about who he “retired” the horse to?[/QUOTE]
I’d be interested in knowing as well. How exactly did the horse get to the slaughter pen, and who sent it there? If they were employed by La Buzz Stables, are they still? Who’s name is on the paper transferring ownership to the Killer buyer or consigning him to the auction?
linny…take off your blinkers…do you look at the rest of the world thru rose colored glasses ???
La Buzz… while I hope what you’re saying is true, I don’t understand how a horse gets on a dealer’s truck and everyone is surprised by this, unless the dealer was one of those who lies to trainers about where the horse will be sold.
(and yeah, I know- that does happen. I’ve met several trainers now with that exact story, they were told the horse would be sold to a good home, only to find out later what happened.)
I guess it would be nice to know exactly what happened- who did Ramon think the horse was going with? Was he misled directly or… ?
