"Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

[sk_pacer]

Standardbred registries have been allowing AI for years, ever since that huge mess in Kentucky over equine STDs so long ago. One can have semen shipped from any farm that ships, no problems. We have also been doing DNA parent verification for ages and blood typing long before that. Embryo transfer is also allowed, but only one foal per mare per year, no multiple foals from embryo transfer mares. I think the JC is long overdue for an overhaul - stepping into the 1970’s would be a huge step for them; expecting them to step into the 21st century might be expecting too much though - culture shock for the Old Boys Club.

In any case, DNA or no, one CAN get into parent verification problems with live cover as well: this scenario happened a few years ago - mare died when the foal was 3-4 months old and the breeder forgot to save some mane hairs and registering that USTA horse (DNA not required then) to SC was a real headache for the man. All that saved his bacon was he had a half sibling to that horse, and managed that way to prove who the mare was by marker eliminations.

[tbtrailrider]

There are WAY TOO MANY thoroughbreds sitting in feed lots and killpens already. I can just imagine how many more there would be if the JC allowed AI. The rules are there for a very good reason.

[VirginiaBred]

@summerhorse

So the big boys can keep iron control on the stallion market. Forget the free market. The small breeders would LOVE it, the big ones (most of which do it anyway to some degree) would hate it. Stallion fees would come down for sure but after a few crazy years everything would equalize. Course if they allowed AI they’d have to allow ET and HEAVEN FORBID a good mare contributes more than one foal a year (if that) to the gene pool while any old mediocre or unraced son of Storm Cat can impregnate as many as they can line up suckers for.

And of course why provide a job for some of those “unwanted” but fertile mares that get sent to slaughter every year? …

So, as always, it’s seemingly about the money. Couldn’t AI be controled in a different fashion?
I, too worry about the horses going to slaughter, so, is live cover the only way? I hardly think so, but how to change???

As TBtrailerrider said, “There are WAY TOO MANY thoroughbreds sitting in feed lots and killpens already. I can just imagine how many more there would be if the JC allowed AI. The rules are there for a very good reason.”

How could this ever get changed?

[CuriosoJorge]

If a horse is not sound to mount a mare, or a mare is too weak to support a stallion, I question the wisdom of passing along those genetics. Breeding 1200 pound animals is inherently dangerous no matter how it’s performed; stallions and handlers get hurt when a dummy is used too. As for mares, better living through modern chemistry.

Rather than “limitless possibilities” the gene pool would be narrowed if AI were allowed in the TB. Much like in labradors, everyone would flock to the horse of the moment, and regional sires would be out of the market.

I’m not flaming you; it’s your opinion, but IMO it’s an uneducated one. There are many facets to TJC’s argument against AI.

[Pronzini]

@CuriosoJorge;2138029

I’m not flaming you; it’s your opinion, but IMO it’s an uneducated one. There are many facets to TJC’s argument against AI.

FWIW, I’m a TB breeder (for the track) in California who this year sent a mare to Kentucky because of the live cover restrictions. If you are asking for my uneducated opinion, the number one reason for the AI restriction is tradition and the Kentucky economy. It would turn the state upside down economically if the stallion owners and syndicates could ship semen instead of requiring mares to be bred and boarded in a tri county area in central Kentucky (at a 25 % higher boarding rate than I pay in wine country California!)

The limiting the gene pool argument got invalidated with the advent of 200 mare books and shuttle sires IMO.

[solargal]

I think with AI instead of 200 Storm Cat babies there would be 500. And the idea of embryo transfer is horrible in my opinion. I understand the purpose but we don’t need 4 siblings the same age. Show or race your horse, then have a foal. The fees would go down with AI introduced and you would have a lot more foals. Shipping somewhat slows it down.

PS. I saw a piece on a quarter mare that was showing but through embryo transfer 5 foals were hitting the ground next year. Creepy.:lol: (If you do this please don’t be offended.)

[sk_pacer]

@solargal;2138153

I think with AI instead of 200 Storm Cat babies there would be 500.

Both Standardbred Canada and USTA put limits on books when crops reached the 350 range; they were knocked back to 250, and now to 200. This does not include foreign registrations (Australian, NZ, Europe, etc.) IF the sire is doing double duty here and in Aus or NZ; not sure about the European rules, they tend to buy what they want for sires and have their own studbooks

[NancyM]

I tend to think that there is too much inbreeding in TBs already, and allowing AI and shipping semen would substantially increase this and compound the problem faster than is already happening. Every time two TBs are bred, the number of the original ancestors is duplicated, and there are far too many copies of the same horses back there ten or twenty generations back. If AI would be allowed, then “horse racing” should be opened up to include horses of mixed breeds, much like “horse jumping” is, to open the possibilities of the genetic pool. Top “racehorses” would be mostly TB and sired by top TB stallions, buy may have an infusion of other race bred breeds also in there, arab, QH etc. Let open competition select those who make the grade. There would still be a large percentage of full TBs as racehorses, as they would be hard to beat, but the stud books would be opened up to genetic variation, and perhaps we would get away from the crappy TB feet, bleeding problems, immunity problems etc. I know, pie in the sky thoughts. But the JC did allow some arab mares into the stud book not too long ago, one of our local stakes horses has one in his female line still on the pedigree page.

[ASB_Stars]

I remembered!

The stallions name was Northern Fling, if anyone remembers him.

I think that the TB people have been very smart- they get the benefit of the revenues from mare care, which is not aninconsiderablel sum for most, and many farms have mares that are year round residents.

That simply doesn’t happen with breeds that do AI (other than Standardbreds, perhaps)

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@sk_pacer;2138163

Both Standardbred Canada and USTA put limits on books when crops reached the 350 range; they were knocked back to 250, and now to 200. This does not include foreign registrations (Australian, NZ, Europe, etc.) IF the sire is doing double duty here and in Aus or NZ; not sure about the European rules, they tend to buy what they want for sires and have their own studbooks

Was there not a lawsuit in the US, specifically brought against the AQHA, that limiting AI books was a restraint of trade? Otherwise I think the JC would have already gone that route, as their argument is against genetic diversity/shrinking of the gene pool.
I read a report online (can’t find it at the mo, but will look for it) that showed that the genetic diversity in Standardbreds has shrunk noticably since the intro of AI with SBs back 30-40 years ago. So there is some credence to their argument, though I don’t doubt that the entrenched interests of cetain gepgraphic TB breeding centres like Kentucky, Ocala, Kildare (Ire), Hunter Valley (Aus) etc, play their part.

I actually think that any assault on the the live cover of TBs will come from outside the US. If someone brings a lawsuit in another country (Australia seems the most likely) and the ban on AI in that country is absolised, then it will make for a real interesting scenario, given that the JC, Wetherby’s, Aus Studbook, etc etc are all part of International Stud Book Committee.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=tbtrailrider;2138005]
There are WAY TOO MANY thoroughbreds sitting in feed lots and killpens already. I can just imagine how many more there would be if the JC allowed AI. The rules are there for a very good reason.[/QUOTE]

And what IS that good reason specifically? I’m not sure how that relates to if the mare was covered by AI or not?
How does AI produce more foals in volume? Weather you ship the mare or ship the blue box you still have one foal. You still paid the same stud fee.
AI does not = “free foals”. If a MO is breeding their mare it will be bred regardless of method. What it WOULD affect is what stud. The small breeder in Idaho might not be able to afford the extra 1200 each way to ship their mare to KY plus the high daily care fees (which is what a lot of the LC thing is really about…mare care fees). Either they will have to use a local stud (less to choose from) OR if they have that kind of money they could spend the extra dollars on a higher stud fee to a better quality stud. AI would also potentially decentralize breeding from KY…something I am sure the big farms in KY do not want. If you can stand your stud in Idaho and ship semen to anyone then you can pay a lot less for your farm! (Please…I have nothing against anyone in Idaho! I randomly picked it as not a big racing mecca state).

[summerhorse]

AI has been shown to actually improve both quality and genetic diversity in virtually every breed/species it is used and most of those have FAR more inbreeding than the TB does.

The free market will limit the number of foals by any stallion. WHY would you pay X $ to pay to be one of 350 when you can pay less $ to be one of 150 for an equal stallion (i.e. SMART stallion managers will limit their books). there will be a few who try to go to the well too often but they will find gues what? an empty well.

It isn’t so much that there are too many TBs, it is there are too many BAD TBs and too many DUMPED TBs (as in used up breeding stock or broken down racing or riding stock). Until slaughter is banned that will always happen. TBs only make up about 10% of the slaughter horses right now anyway. That could easily go to zero were the industry really to step behind eliminating slaughter as an acceptable way to get rid of TBs.

Storm Cat is only bred to about 125 mares a year. He stands for $500,000. Some of his sons and others have bred 200 mares a year or so. They stand for $20,000-75,000 or so. Most lower. Already their fees are coming down as those huge numbers of foals show their weaknesses as sires. But their owners don’t care, they made back their ridiculous syndication prices. it is the owners of the foals will are taking a beating at the auctions (and that is actually true for every level of fee, they are all too high for even a tiny majority to make a profit at the sales).

AI or not Storm Cat will STILL only cover 125 mares or so a year. the difference is he can do so with much less effort and far greater safety.

It will also help get rid of mediocre and just plain bad stallions in all markets (THESE are generally the ones filling up the kill pens, not storm cat!) and enable people in any state to get to a huge variety of stallions without shipping their mares and foals thus INCREASING the genetic base in each state.

[Glimmerglass]

AI would be the deathknell for TB horse racing, so be careful for what you wish for. The breeding charges would plumet as would the auction prices. The result would be a massive spike in TB horses born. Not one person could claim a logical arguement that it wouldn’t. It would only be a matter of time before the big operations would make up for lost revenue per “unit” via an upturn in volume.

The shockwave becomes that there would be a flood of watered down horses of little market value hitting the track, racing for then even smaller purses and when it doesn’t work out churned out to post-careers of few opportunities. The world does not need whatsoever any increase in TBs. AI might be fine for sport horses but not TB racing.

Someone said Storm Cat covers “only” 150 mares a year. I only wish the days of Man O’War with 25 (at most) a year was the selective norm. Too many folks in the breeding business motivated by money - specifically how quick and how much - who are ruining the sport with an output of fragile, weak, substandard bloodlines.

I’d fight to my last breath against AI. One can only hope the JC never gives in to the pressure of the “barbarians at the gates”.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;2139072]
AI would be the deathknell for TB horse racing, so be careful for what you wish for. The breeding charges would plumet as would the auction prices. The result would be a massive spike in TB horses born. Not one person could claim a logical arguement that it wouldn’t. It would only be a matter of time before the big operations would make up for lost revenue per “unit” via an upturn in volume.

The shockwave becomes that there would be a flood of watered down horses of little market value hitting the track, racing for then even smaller purses and when it doesn’t work out churned out to post-careers of few opportunities. The world does not need whatsoever any increase in TBs. AI might be fine for sport horses but not TB racing.

Someone said Storm Cat covers “only” 150 mares a year. I only wish the days of Man O’War with 25 (at most) a year was the selective norm. Too many folks in the breeding business motivated by money - specifically how quick and how much - who are ruining the sport with an output of fragile, weak, substandard bloodlines.

I’d fight to my last breath against AI. One can only hope the JC never gives in to the pressure of the “barbarians at the gates”.[/QUOTE]

Amen!!!

[Pronzini]

I’m baffled why people think AI will lead to an increase in horses bred. There is still only one uterus involved. The foal will still cost about $10,000 to raise through the yearling year no matter how it was conceived. The stud fee may go down some, but I wouldn’t count on it being slashed wholesale. Twenty some odd years ago, people were aghast at Alydar covering 90 mares at a fee around $200,000. Now Storm Cat covers 125 at $500,000 and Giant’s Causeways does both seasons. Have the stud fees gone down?

But I’ll tell you what it means to small regional breeders. It means removing a mare from a farm that I trust implicitly, putting her on a van for days, exposing her to disease and accident, relying on periodic emails from a farm that came highly recommended but one I have never visited --and costs 25 % more because they are Kentucky rates–and hoping that it all works out when with any luck she comes home in foal sometime this year.

What I’d rather be doing is supporting my state’s economy. However, I owe it to my mare and to myself to give her the best shot at producing the best foal and the stallion quality in Kentucky is so much deeper than anyplace else. It’s also the most commercial move to make if I want to sell the baby someday to have a Kentucky bred “Calbred”. But from a horse husbandry viewpoint, moving a mare instead of an Equitainer strikes me as silly.

[HobbyHorseLabradors]

@summerhorse;2139053

AI has been shown to actually improve both quality and genetic diversity in virtually every breed/species it is used and most of those have FAR more inbreeding than the TB does.

The free market will limit the number of foals by any stallion. WHY would you pay X $ to pay to be one of 350 when you can pay less $ to be one of 150 for an equal stallion (i.e. SMART stallion managers will limit their books). there will be a few who try to go to the well too often but they will find gues what? an empty well.

It isn’t so much that there are too many TBs, it is there are too many BAD TBs and too many DUMPED TBs (as in used up breeding stock or broken down racing or riding stock). Until slaughter is banned that will always happen. TBs only make up about 10% of the slaughter horses right now anyway. That could easily go to zero were the industry really to step behind eliminating slaughter as an acceptable way to get rid of TBs.

Storm Cat is only bred to about 125 mares a year. He stands for $500,000. Some of his sons and others have bred 200 mares a year or so. They stand for $20,000-75,000 or so. Most lower. Already their fees are coming down as those huge numbers of foals show their weaknesses as sires. But their owners don’t care, they made back their ridiculous syndication prices. it is the owners of the foals will are taking a beating at the auctions (and that is actually true for every level of fee, they are all too high for even a tiny majority to make a profit at the sales).

AI or not Storm Cat will STILL only cover 125 mares or so a year. the difference is he can do so with much less effort and far greater safety.

It will also help get rid of mediocre and just plain bad stallions in all markets (THESE are generally the ones filling up the kill pens, not storm cat!) and enable people in any state to get to a huge variety of stallions without shipping their mares and foals thus INCREASING the genetic base in each state.

I couldn’t have said it better myself!
If JQ Public wants to breed their TB mare, they are going to breed their TB mare. There are soooo many BYB’s that think they want to have a racehorse and they are going to do it no matter what anyone says, or what the LC restriction is or isn’t. They are not going to ship her to KY, they are going to trailer her down the road to whatever stallion is close by because of the LC restriction. Was that stallion the best choice? No probably not. But, he was within driving distance for a LC.
In breeding animals, proximity should never be the decision maker in choosing a mate. Quality should. Quality doesn’t usually live down the street.
Now if the JC really wanted to control the quality of the TBs being produced (since some people are arguing that LC is the way they can do this), they would limit their stud books and do inspections on both mares and stallions (like the WB registries). This would make it so the stud fees don’t go down with the introduction of AI (limited number of foals allowed to be registered per stallion, per year) and also make it so that only good specimins are reproducing. Inspections would be a way for the long distance stallion owner to evaluate who gets semen shipped to them, and who doesn’t when managing their stud books. It would require the JC to monitor what is going on in their breed.
This would do so much for the racing industry (better race horses because of more choices to breed to) and would cut way down on the thousands of poor specimins who are thoughtlessly bred and then discarded at the feed lot later.

[Slewdledo]

Thank you, Glimmerglass.

Summerhorse: Giant’s Causeway. By Storm Cat. Stud fee: $300,000 in 2006. Mares bred in 2006: 191.

[hb]

@Pronzini;2139330

I’m baffled why people think AI will lead to an increase in horses bred. There is still only one uterus involved.

There will be more uteruses involved. It would be more accessible for people to have the semen shipped to them and keep the mare at home than to ship the mare to the stallion, so some who are “on the fence” about breeding will decide to do it. Also, if the stallion can service more mares through AI, then the stallion owners can charge a little less for a stud fee and a few more mare owners may decide to breed.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@summerhorse;2139053

AI or not Storm Cat will STILL only cover 125 mares or so a year. the difference is he can do so with much less effort and far greater safety.

No, he could concievably cover 1,250 mares at $50k a pop. Maybe even 2000 at $25k, and still make the same money.
The knock on effect would be the regional stallions standing in places like NM, OK, IL, for $2k to $5k would be completly squeezed out of the market.

I don’t agree that there will be more mares bred, and ergo more TBs. What I see is the same number of mares being bred to a smaller number of stallions. That has to result in the shrinking of the gene pool.

Sure you could fly semen in from anywhere in the world are get access to bloodlines you don’t have ready access to, but how many US breeders will breed to foreign horses? Very few I would imagine. A lot of studs overseas are US rejects that couldn’t get mares stateside, or are bred for a different surface and distances.

[HobbyHorseLabradors]

@Drvmb1ggl3;2139524

No, he could concievably cover 1,250 mares at $50k a pop. Maybe even 2000 at $25k, and still make the same money.
The knock on effect would be the regional stallions standing in places like NM, OK, IL, for $2k to $5k would be completly squeezed out of the market.

I don’t agree that there will be more mares bred, and ergo more TBs. What I see is the same number of mares being bred to a smaller number of stallions. That has to result in the shrinking of the gene pool.

Sure you could fly semen in from anywhere in the world are get access to bloodlines you don’t have ready access to, but how many US breeders will breed to foreign horses? Very few I would imagine. A lot of studs overseas are US rejects that couldn’t get mares stateside, or are bred for a different surface and distances.

Hey, no one said anything about shipping semen overseas. That would have to be looked at very carefully as with the rest. I also would not condone IVF. I think that’s taking it a bit too far…
The point here is, maybe stallions standing at $2G in NM or Ok should be squeezed out of the market??? If they were that good, their fees would be greater in the first place and even if not, people would still go to them just by their merrits alone.
I just feel that with proper regulation in all aspects, it could be a much safer option to allow AI.
Now I do not have or have any desire whatsoever to breed my own TB race horse. I have a barn full of OTTBs, most of which are rescued throwaways. Some had decent careers, some should never have been conceived in the first place, at least not with racing in mind. So I am well aware of the overpopulation of TBs, many poor quality as far as racing is concerned.
But if perhaps the JC allowed AI in conjuction with better supervision on whats being allowed in their stud books, the industry would be better for it?
As far as the gene pool narrowing, I doubt that. Not with limited registrations. Just because they allow AI, certainly does not mean all the new foal crops would be by Storm Cat! Be realistic!