"Live Cover" as defined by the Jockey Club?

[Pronzini]

I can’t speak to Maryland but I know what’s available in California and it’s not just a question of coming up with a little more money. I’m near the top end of the stud fees here as it is but, for various reasons, there are only about 4 stallions in the state I’d actually breed to which is why I took it on the road. I don’t want to breed to the failed $2500 son of Storm Cat because mentally I can’t help but add $20,000 to the cost of the fee to raise the baby and there is almost no chance that those stallions will sire anything worth near that much.

There’s another phenomena out here that does not happen in Kentucky and I suspect doesn’t happen in alot of the Eastern states. Distances, even within the same state, are huge out here and live cover means that you have to board with unfamiliar folks if they stand a stallion you’re interested in. There is one stallion in a major farm who is one of the more expensive stallions in the state that I won’t utilize because the mare care there is reportedly atrocious. Horses have reportedly come back thin and banged up. I know a fellow breeder who had a mare foal out at a (different) large farm so he could breed to one of the leading sires in the state. That foal has never thrived and he found out when she came home that she was sickly from birth and may not have been treated as aggressively as she should have been early. No one told him anything and he didn’t even know anything was wrong until he got the first bill and spotted some antibiotics on it.

There is thread after thread on COTH about boarding facilities and trusting their competence etc etc. Well, that’s a way of life for many TB breeders under live cover. You send a mare off–sometimes to different states–and you often have no idea what’s happening to her, who’s looking after her or what they are doing. It’s worse when there is a baby involved too.

[Jessi_P]

I have to digress from the original focus for a minute and add my $0.02.

I believe that the today’s Thoroughbred as a breed is at a point where there are a large number of Tbs in a wide range of talent. I believe that there is a large “middle class” in the racing TB world today. I believe there are a lot of factors that go into that - including regional programs that promote the breeding of “less than stellar” racing stock by way of bonus incentives. I believe that we are at a point where we can either reinforce the breed by breeding the best to the best (which we smaller breeders will be able to better afford via AI) or we can further dilute the talent of the breed by breeding mediocre stock (Joe Blow down the road). Of course this equation only takes into consideration the stallions…the mare is an equal part of the equation, however she has a limit to how many foals per year she can have, even considering ET - the stallions have a deeper impact overall on the breed than the mares (IMHO). So, if we begin AI, the middle and lower class stallions will be culled and upper classes more readily available to the smaller breeders whose homebreds comprise a goodly % of the TB foal crop. And in the next generation, the broodmares will be daughters of the better stallions, and further strengthen the breed. Poor producing mares will be culled as availability increases to daughters of better sires.

This is what we can do with the breed today, IMHO.

Or we can continue to promote mediocrity by insisting on live cover - where location and $ become greater factors in the breeding decision.

Just my $0.02 - back to your regularly sheduled program.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=Jessi P;2144273]
I have to digress from the original focus for a minute and add my $0.02.

I believe that the today’s Thoroughbred as a breed is at a point where there are a large number of Tbs in a wide range of talent. I believe that there is a large “middle class” in the racing TB world today. I believe there are a lot of factors that go into that - including regional programs that promote the breeding of “less than stellar” racing stock by way of bonus incentives. I believe that we are at a point where we can either reinforce the breed by breeding the best to the best (which we smaller breeders will be able to better afford via AI) or we can further dilute the talent of the breed by breeding mediocre stock (Joe Blow down the road). Of course this equation only takes into consideration the stallions…the mare is an equal part of the equation, however she has a limit to how many foals per year she can have, even considering ET - the stallions have a deeper impact overall on the breed than the mares (IMHO). So, if we begin AI, the middle and lower class stallions will be culled and upper classes more readily available to the smaller breeders whose homebreds comprise a goodly % of the TB foal crop. And in the next generation, the broodmares will be daughters of the better stallions, and further strengthen the breed. Poor producing mares will be culled as availability increases to daughters of better sires.

This is what we can do with the breed today, IMHO.

Or we can continue to promote mediocrity by insisting on live cover - where location and $ become greater factors in the breeding decision.

Just my $0.02 - back to your regularly sheduled program. ;)[/QUOTE]

I agree

And on the boarding/shipping thing too. I’ve heard SO many horror stories of neglected mares, sick and dying foals, etc. The fact is it is hard to find anyone to take as good a care of your mare as you esp. when they are running 100s or 1000s through a season.

[On_the_Farm]

I’m still puzzled by some of the logic here. First is the notion that regional stallions and their diversity will flourish with AI, but then another notion is presented that AI will eliminate middle and lower level stallions and only the best stallions will be available in the long run. Aren’t those two notions contradictory?

Anyway, this subject has been argued ad nauseum on several occasions here. My view is that the breed has been well served for generations by the live cover rule and I sincerely hope it remains in force for many more. As JessiP mentioned, state bred rules, particularly New York’s old breedback requirement, have interfered with tb development, but that is an entirely different issue.

[Jessi_P]

In case my post was not entirely clear - When I say the middle and lower classes will be culled - I do not mean eliminated completely! I believe that should AI be allowed then each level of stud fee will whittled down until several of the best in each $ slot remain. But I think we will see a sharp decline in the numbers of the lower end stallions simply because the convenience of breeding to Joe Blow down the street will be supplanted by the ability to order up semen from a better stallion instead. There will be less incentive to stand lower end stallions when/if AI allows greater diversity. Of course there will always be exceptions, and there will be individuals using the option of AI to breed to particular stallions who might not be the most fashionable but because of precise pedigree matching and nicking information. Perhaps there is a stallion whose pedigree and physical type perfectly complement my mare - but I am by Pittsburgh, Pa and he is in Cali or Arizona… AI allows me to execute that breeding where I would not have been able to do so with the current live cover rules. So in that respect the gene pool available to me as a breeder will increase. I believe that overall the number of stallions will decrease - and all stallions (incl higher stud fee stallions) will come down a rung in price. Just my speculation…

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=On the Farm;2145411]
I’m still puzzled by some of the logic here. First is the notion that regional stallions and their diversity will flourish with AI, but then another notion is presented that AI will eliminate middle and lower level stallions and only the best stallions will be available in the long run. Aren’t those two notions contradictory?

Anyway, this subject has been argued ad nauseum on several occasions here. My view is that the breed has been well served for generations by the live cover rule and I sincerely hope it remains in force for many more. As JessiP mentioned, state bred rules, particularly New York’s old breedback requirement, have interfered with tb development, but that is an entirely different issue.[/QUOTE]

No what will happen is the under performers will be elimininated, most stud fees (probably not those at the top) will come down some, some a lot as horses fees will be required to reflect their actual production rather than the current “fad” although that part will never go away particularly at the high end of the sales market. Good stallions will no longer need to be hustled off to KY to be available to all and mare owners can access any bloodline they want not the ones within affordable driving distance. This will actually bring MORE bloodlines to regional markets. There will ALWAYS be regional markets and people can still breed live cover all they want if they prefer. People can still stand any stallion they want but economics will see that those who are actually in it to make money vs. hobby breeders who just love their stallion regardless of his production will not be sending tons of mares to stallions who do not produce.

there will be fewer stallions. This is not a bad thing, there are too many stallions now. Most of the bad ones thankfully have small books but they are still producing a lot of racehorses who will never ever earn their keep. And aren’t pretty or sound enough to show or event. With ET mares could be MORE represented which would actually increase diversity as all mares are underrepresented vs. stallions in the gene pool and many of these mares are from older or solid but not sale fashion bloodlines. Or turf or distance lines (good for breed to race, not at all desired by sales breeders).

Here’s an example. Say I have a nice mare who will foal and I want to breed her back. The top 3 stallions in FL are Exchange Rate (not nationally Ranked) $10,000, 44% Starters from foals, 27% winners from foals, 3% SWs from foals, Concerto, $7,500, #75th nationally, 69% starters, 55% winners, 6% SWs, and Concorde’s Tune, $3,500 (good but his foals are not popular at the sales), 64% starters, 50% winners, 5% SWs (not bad for the money actually), all 3 are Danzig lines. There is also Halo’s Image (Halo), ranked #69, stats not available right now and Trippi (End Sweep), #78, his stats aren’t coming up either. Figure in shipping up and back, $1,000, plus mare care.

But what if my mare IS a Danzig or I’ve already bred to Trippi, Halo’s Image, and/or the others. There are a ton of very nice, high priced but totally unproven stallions in FL a race to breed owner is not going to LEAP to get into their book for the money. Also FL is kind of saturated with relatively few (successful) sire lines.

OR in KY I could get Pleasant Tap (Pleasant Colony) for $15,000, ranked #12 nationally, 70% St, 47% win, and 7% SWs, Royal Academy (Nijinksy), 2nd nationally, $15,000, with 72% starters, 48% winners, 7% stakes winners or Slew City Slew (Seattle Slew), $6,000, #27 nationally (until Lava Man runs again anyway! =) with 79% SWs, 60% winners, and 6% SWs. All of these have gotten “the big horse”, none of the FL horses have.

But figure in 13 hour drive at about $2,000 Cheapest, more for a mare with foal, double or triple the mare care. It adds on a LOT to those fees.

With AI those shipping and mare care fees are gone and no risk to my newborn foal. AND WAY better stallions for not that much more money but it might be my limit of money.

And of course there are other lesser stallions in KY than this for way less fees that would also suit. Just showing you can get to the very top without spending that much more money on fees if you don’t have to pay another $5,000 or so in transport and mare care and associated costs plus the risk to mare and foal. At least if she doesn’t catch I haven’t wasted all that money!