Londonderry vs Londontime. Opinions?

[alexandra]

He was no shown between 2008 and 2011 - I think he was not at the state stud at that time.

He has placings from 2013 in S** that is Level 4 comparable and Prix St. Georges.
State stud does not show them a lot.
The oldest offspring is from 2007 and I found some placed on Level 2 in double and also some placed in Level 3 in a double. Only 80 are recorded with the FN with placings and from 2007 I find only 8 - so he was not really overly used in the beginning. And after the first foals were Born looking rather normal, a lot of breeders did shy away. I actually know a stallion Person who bred 2 Mares to him and was so disappointed he did not really look at those two until the were started under saddle. He was than so surprised by their ethic that he told me ain 2011 - use Londontime on the mare. But that was the year I gave her off.

[Spike]

Thanks! So if I resume what has been wrote so far, Londonderry tends to passes on elegance and type, lenght of legs and a nice trot with active hindlegs. He is used as an example for conformation and modern refinement. One should be aware that he might give sensitive but the ride is good. Londontime, on the other side, is more impressive and likely will give more frame, substance and size, but still with elegance. His canter is lovely, his temperament is good, and looks like to have a better topline and hindleg than his father. He seems to be appreciated by breeders, but there’s might or might not be something not clear with x-rays, and despite the fact that no one knows if it is inheritable or not, or even true or not, here in NA it is - for buyers - quite a deal breaker.

Well well. I am still on the fence. I have a particular mare that I am looking for to breed, choice was set on Londonderry but then I came across that son of his, and now I am not so sure anymore. Decisions, decisions!

Thanks everybody for your inputs!

[Spike]

Has anyone been successfull with Londontime frozen semen in NA lately?

[HorseKrazy]

From the description so far, for my mare I would choose Londonderry. My mare is already big and an older type that could use the refinement. A little more sensitivity wouldn’t hurt her at all either. Her last owner went with a thoroughbred for his keeper filly because he wanted to get a more ‘reactive’ horse. I can’t remember the name of the stallion though… Oh well, either way if it were for me I would choose Londonderry.

[alexandra]

Since this x ray issue seems to still hold up I will ask and will let you know.
As said my resemblance is that the x ray issue was due to laminitis. And honestly if he would have issues why are they showing him at a level where there is collection needed ? I actually give nothing to that gossip and I would also encourage to stop this tale unless one has really talked to a vet that has seen and judged those xrays.
Plus why would someone (and the someone includes the xpert Mr. Klaus Bünger) pay 510.000€ for a horse that is not sound enough ?

[Miss_Dior]

I have a 6 yo Londontime. He is ENORMOUS. 17.2 to 17.3. Great mover, comfy to sit and excellent temperament. And perfect extensive X-rays. Can be a bit hotter but good focus in his training. Not a spook just energetic. Saw all 3 generations of stallion side in Germany in person. Londontime much more refined than his dad. Laurie’s was a beauty until the end. Love them all !!!

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Miss Dior;7359964]
Londontime much more refined than his dad. [/QUOTE]

I would have to disagree with that. I have seen all three as well and Londontime, whom I love, has much a bigger frame, bone and general body size than his sire. The Tb influence, I think, is much more obvious with Londonderry. I have had LT on my “stallions love to breed to” list for a few years now as I prefer him to Londonderry and love the freedom he has in his body.

Londonderry
http://landgestuetcelle.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=16&idart=223

Londontime

http://landgestuetcelle.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=16&idart=175

[Miss_Dior]

Possibly the difference is Londontime is in FEI level work and Londonderry is not. But I spent a great deal of time with both. Neither heavy but Londontime very typey to me in comparison.

[clint]

Got to agree with Blume on this. To me Londontime is massive, while Londonderry is quite refined.

[Donella]

[QUOTE=clint;7361973]
Got to agree with Blume on this. To me Londontime is massive, while Londonderry is quite refined.[/QUOTE]

Me three. I have seen both stallions many times both in work (both at advanced level) and close up. Londonderry is the definition of a modern type and has been described as the “epitome of the modern Hanoverian horse” by breed experts. He is undoubtedly much more refined and blood influenced than Londontime.

[ticofuzzy]

I bred a Londonderry mare out of a short legged, heavy bodied Davignon mare. Londonderry added length of leg, length of neck and improved the hind end. The trot isn’t as fancy as the dam’s (or her other offspring’s) but the canter is better. The Londonderry is much more sensitive than the mare or her other offspring. She’s also HUGE (18 Hands!). She is the most honest, rideable horse I’ve ever ridden. Her willingness and mental ability to deal with the work are second to none. She is pretty well balanced (considering her size) but progresses a bit more slowly than a smaller horse as she has to figure out how to deal with her size and movement. She is not, what I would consider, “young horse” material but seems to have a great ability for the upper levels of dressage.
I did breed her to Benidetto, hoping to downsize her and add a bit more expression to her gaits and I got a carbon copy of her, but more refined. Same look, similar conformation (maybe better croup), same gaits but lighter bodied. So, I would say that Londonderry is pretty pre-potent

[rodawn]

I’m looking at using Londontime. The horse is working at a collective level and I have serious respect for his current owner so I doubt there is much of a serious problem as someone has also stated. If there might be an x-ray with changes due to laminitis, that does not necessarily concern either because laminitis could have been caused by any number of mostly nonheritable problems - a sudden change in diet, a serious reaction to a vaccine or deworming medicine, or an illness causing a high fever, colic, prolonged concussion on a very hard surface, prolonged confinement in a stall, etc.

The mare I am thinking about is refined and can produce refined so she can get away with going with a stallion who can produce bigger. Pairing her to Londontime would result in a 3x appearance from World Cup I, but all via different sons and all about 3rd-4th generation back - Weltmeyer, Warkant and Walt Disney. I also really liked Trapper. He was a stallion who generated a certain amount of appreciation and his offspring were often dual purposed for dressage or show jumping. All in all, the family lines in both Londonderry and Londontime are very strong with undeniable success.

I have already doubled this mare up twice with World Cup I and World Cup III and the resulting filly was very sweet natured and easy to handle. It’s an interesting idea and one I have been thinking about for a couple years actually. I have her planned out for the next couple years, however, first.

Warkant and World Cup III actually look quite similar to each other. Just as an aside.

What I am particularly impressed with the World Cup lineage is their damline - that gorgeous mix of Sender with Der Lowe’s son, Lugano, and crossing with Woermann, and then taking those daughters or granddaughters and pairing to the Lauries Crusador and it has been like gold.

[rodawn]

As an interesting comparison, using strictly the stats:

Lauries Crusador: riding horse/type 142; Limbs 122; Dressage 116; jumping 72.

Londonderry: riding horse/type 152; limbs 129; dressage 134; jumping 73

Londontime: riding horse/type 121; limbs 131; dressage 154; jumping 72

Out of the 3 sires, Londontime passes on the greatest in dressage ability.

Londonderry has the greatest propensity for passing good type.

All 3 stallions are roughly in the same stats category for the likelihood of passing on good legs with Londontime being a bit more likely.

And none of them will do anything much for a good jump, in fact will likely take it down.

[Donella]

I was thinking of Londontime for my Rosentau mare as she crossed so well with Londonderry and Wolkentanz II as well. Would be neat to try something with a bit of both the L and W lines in the mix.

Ticofuzzy, interesting to hear about the super rideability of your mare. I love mine too. I thought I knew what sensitive was and then I met Lily:D Apparently though many tend to be on the more difficult side. My sig other just got back from a riding job in Germany and people at the barn were feeling sorry for him when they told him that he rode a Londonderry mare (mine). He was kind of perplexed because he rode our mare all last year and just loves her. But apparently a lot of them do not take pressure well. Another really good breeder I respect over there told me the same thing when I asked if he ever used Londonderry. Nope, apparently they are too difficult so he stopped breeding to him despite the fact that he produces such beautiful , good moving horses. I certainly can’t complain about mine so the comments kind of surprised me.

[Crosiadore]

Would love to see videos of the Londonderry mares. We have a 2003 Londonderry/Weltmeyer/Shogun xx mare that is quite special. She is not really complicated just needs to be ridden correctly (-: And her daughter by Quaterback is not complicated in the least. I would not breed to Londonderry but am super happy to own this daughter of his. She is one of my favorites and in the show ring she is dynamite. Crazy amount of presence.

[Donella]

Crosiadore, I love your Londonderry mare, she is indeed special!!

I probably wouldn’t have put much stock in the comment about rideability if it were some normal rider but these guys are world class young horse riders working in one of the top barns in Germany. That being said, everyone has an opinion and it seems like often two people with the same credentials will think the opposite thing. But you do have to wonder as well why there are so few Londonderry offspring at GP…

Just food for thought…

[Crosiadore]

I must put this out there and it is not so much directed at Londonderry as labeling stallions. We have a Danish Bereiter at our farm. She does a good job. But her job entails riding many horses per day… the easier the horse the better for her. I am sure this is the same anywhere…and I do breed for temperament. Is the super easy horse always the best horse for the future…maybe yes maybe no…but an easy horse takes a load off a heavy day of riding young horses.

I am a firm believer in producing horses that are talented and ridable. That is what I want for my own mount. But I certainly do not discount those few talented horses that may not fit into the “30 minute plan” of young horse training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSlIEWc5t2o

This is an older mare that was in the field for three years. She is not difficult but you must ride with finesse. She is a bit more complicated but in the right hands as you will see in the video quite talented.

[Crosiadore]

http://www.crosiadorefarm.com/mares/lowara/

I was updating my website and could not resist posting this page. (Neither are for sale and I am not breeding them for now.) Anyway, I thought the photo of Lowara as a five year old versus that as a nine year old was quite interesting for this discussion and for the refining stallions discussion. Had never put the two photos together until five minutes ago. I knew my impressions but this helps distinguish the difference between modern at a younger age but still modern but muscled up at a later age.

[Blume_Farm]

Crosiadore…lovely, lovely mares. Just a question for you…when I look at your Londonderry mare she looks quite substantial, which is not what I would expect with so much blood influence through both Londonderry and Shogun. She looks more Weltmeyer influenced in type and movement (very floaty way of moving). What do you think?

Also, love your rider. Who is she?

[Crosiadore]

To me she is more Londonderry…the hind leg Weltmeyer. She was weedy and way too narrow for a long time. She does now go in a wide saddle but is very comfortable to sit on. I bred her to Quaterback because I found her a bit too refined and longer backed. She will try to out think you but nothing like my smarty pants Andalusian gelding. He is a delight and a challenge every day and is 15!

Lowara is the consummate show horse. Lights up the arena when she enters. But her Quaterback filly is more correct and compact and maybe does not the same big gaits but more useful gaits. That is a lesson I have learned…extravagant does not always equal useful gaits for moving up the levels (-: