Long legged rough coated JRT?

[S1969]

@fledermaus

There’s little room in the genetic selection process to go for pretty as well as useful.

I understand this, and I’m sure it’s true. It’s like saying a good horse is never a bad color.

What I don’t really understand is the anger toward AKC, as if they actively try to dumb down a breed for looks. Conformation is just conformation. It can’t, and doesn’t take working ability into account. Writing a standard and allowing dogs to compete in competition shouldn’t define the breed, IF people actually do care if they are working dogs.

I can see why certain breeders wouldn’t register their dogs in AKC, or would just choose not to participate in conformation at all. That is certainly happening in many other breeds. I know a lot of AKC registered dogs in my breed that would be laughed out of the dog show ring. But they have other qualities that make them highly desirable for competition and/or just hunting. Or, I can see why a parent club might also maintain a registry of their own and some dogs might register in both.

I guess the choice to belong to AKC is most likely to split an original parent club, and then maybe each with only half the strength of membership is less able to act as a breed preservation club.

[fledermaus]

@S1969

What I don’t really understand is the anger toward AKC, as if they actively try to dumb down a breed for looks.

Google The Border Collie Wars, for one answer. The right to have control over a name is primary. Now we have two completely different dog breeds called Border Collie. One is the premier herding breed world wide, with a passionate adherence to breeding for those qualities that have made it so. Any dog of any breed can be registered with the ABCA if it can do well in a open level BC trial. Almost none can. The other breed has a vague physical resemblance to a prettified Border Collie, otherwise they have nothing in common. This matters to the working people – a lot.

In the end, it doesn’t matter as much as they thought it would; people in search of useful dogs in many breeds avoid AKC as a known producer of non-working animals. The AKC doesn’t have to try to dumb down a breed for looks. It happens anyway, whenever a breed is selected for looks over other any other trait.

That’s my whole entire point here: breed for a dog that only looks like it works, and you’ll get exactly that.

[S1969]

I’m familiar with that story, although obviously I don’t know it in detail. My point still is that there had to have been a group that sought out inclusion in AKC. I don’t imagine that AKC chased down BC enthusiasts trying to get them to want to be registered. I could be wrong…of course. But there are hundreds of breeds that are not recognized by AKC.

The title: The Dog Wars : How the Border Collie Battled the American Kennel Club
suggests that AKC initiated this inclusion - but our experience is 100% the opposite. They are literally standing back with their hands in the air saying “you all need to work this out.”

[fledermaus]

@S1969

They are literally standing back with their hands in the air saying “you all need to work this out.”

Sure, but their original and primary mandate is to be a venue for conformation dog shows. The Who’s To Blame game is totally predictable. It’s not the AKC, it’s the conformation breeders. No, it’s those bad conformation breeders who don’t ‘see the whole dog’. No, it’s the judges! And as an ostinato under all these accusations, the refrain They’re Only In It For the Money.

In the end, no one believes that AKC Border Collies are real Border Collies except people who don’t need them to work. So, in my opinion it was a waste of anger. The public wants a BC Lite to be their house pet, and they have spoken.

[S1969]

@fledermaus

In the end, no one believes that AKC Border Collies are real Border Collies except people who don’t need them to work. So, in my opinion it was a waste of anger. The public wants a BC Lite to be their house pet, and they have spoken.

Well, yes, I agree.

And the reality is - there will always be those breeders who don’t register, don’t health test, don’t prove their dogs, etc. etc.

All the anger in the world doesn’t change that. The only thing a breed club can do is to make people want to belong to them, and follow their code of ethics. A “BC Lite” probably makes a good agility dog, and if you want a conformation title too…go for it.

In my breed - if you want a big, over standard “Sett-ney” that looks like a Brittany…you can find one. Registered and everything. We’re not proud of it, but there isn’t much we could do. At worst, we could refuse them membership in our parent club…but that’s about all.