Wow. Who knew my opinion would turn into such a big deal. They are just that. My OPINION. Everyone has one. I find bit guards silly and pointless. Doesn’t mean I don’t respect your use for them. I’ve never needed one. And just because something is illegal in the show ring doesn’t mean it’s not used at home.
Girl asked for opinions, so I gave mine. If her horse can be ridden in her plain loose ring, do it. No need for people to jump on me for my opinion.
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8338677]
Wow. Who knew my opinion would turn into such a big deal. They are just that. My OPINION. Everyone has one. I find bit guards silly and pointless. Doesn’t mean I don’t respect your use for them. I’ve never needed one. And just because something is illegal in the show ring doesn’t mean it’s not used at home.
Girl asked for opinions, so I gave mine. If her horse can be ridden in her plain loose ring, do it. No need for people to jump on me for my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I said nothing about a bit guard.
What you said was that a judge would place a rider in a loose ring/d-ring over someone in a pelham or ‘bitted up’, and that’s simply not correct.
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8337656]
I think it would be fabulous! I’m not a judge and haven’t been competing in eq in years, but I would think that a judge would place a rider who could ride in a simple snaffle well much higher than a rider who has their horse “bitted up” so to speak. There is a reason dressage makes those bits illegal. :)[/QUOTE]
No, you’ve got this all wrong. I’m also a hunter judge, and most judges will tell you when asked, put your horse in whatever bit they go best in. It’s just that simple. Some horses are just not snaffle horses. Some riders need more or less bit depending on the horse they are riding, their riding style, strengths, weaknesses, etc.
As others have already pointed out, just because you watch a hunter going around the ring in a D ring snaffle does NOT tell you what the mouth piece is like. As others have stated, it could be a double twisted wire snaffle. That’s better than using a soft rubber pelham? 
In my honest opinion, there is just no way for a judge to place a rider using a simple snaffle over a rider who is using more bit…as you don’t know the story behind why each rider is using that particular bit.
Dressage makes those bits illegal simply because dressage is based on acceptance of the bit, submission, engagement, lightness of the forehand, self-carriage, suppleness, etc., not because they are harsh or inhumane for the horse. Riding dressage, for example, at the lower levels with a harsh bit or leverage bit defeats the purpose of the above requirements. Comparing dressage to hunters is like comparing apples to alligators. And I’m one who can state that, as I show in both hunters and dressage.
[QUOTE=Daventry;8339113]
No, you’ve got this all wrong. I’m also a hunter judge, and most judges will tell you when asked, put your horse in whatever bit they go best in. It’s just that simple. Some horses are just not snaffle horses. Some riders need more or less bit depending on the horse they are riding, their riding style, strengths, weaknesses, etc.
As others have already pointed out, just because you watch a hunter going around the ring in a D ring snaffle does NOT tell you what the mouth piece is like. As others have stated, it could be a double twisted wire snaffle. That’s better than using a soft rubber pelham?
In my honest opinion, there is just no way for a judge to place a rider using a simple snaffle over a rider who is using more bit…as you don’t know the story behind why each rider is using that particular bit.
Dressage makes those bits illegal simply because dressage is based on acceptance of the bit, submission, engagement, lightness of the forehand, self-carriage, suppleness, etc., not because they are harsh or inhumane for the horse. Riding dressage, for example, at the lower levels with a harsh bit or leverage bit defeats the purpose of the above requirements. Comparing dressage to hunters is like comparing apples to alligators. And I’m one who can state that, as I show in both hunters and dressage. ;)[/QUOTE]
I apologize for insinuating that a bit with leverage is “harsh”. I base my judgement on the acceptance of the bit because of my riding background in dressage, so in my eyes, a horse who accepts the simple snaffle would be the horse that would appear to be more pleasurable to ride and shows more skill of the rider. But my opinion was based on it being a plain smooth snaffle. It didn’t occur to me that twisted wire and other much harsher bits exist. I know they do. I just don’t use them so I don’t think about it. Also not saying those that ride in a Pelham have any less skill. My option is based off the look and look alone. It makes sense in my head to think that way. Which is why I posted as I did. A judge doesn’t know the horses and why they are in a particular bit. I know if I were purchasing a horse to ride, I’d rather purchase the one that goes in a simple snaffle over the Pelham. That’s just me and my opinion. I’m simple. Everyone has their reasons and i understand every horse is different. Was just giving my opinion on what it looks like on the outside. 
not meaning to step on any toes nor try to start an argument. This is strictly my opinion. Not fact. I appreciate everyone’s opinion on the matter. Can’t learn and grow without hearing all sides :))
[QUOTE=Dewey;8338215]
I always thought the purpose of the bit guard was to prevent the loose-ring bit from being pulled through the mouth if an out-of-control situation happens. In some cases, the loose ring goes right through the mouth if a rider uses a pulley rein, for example. That won’t happen with other types of snaffles.
At least, that’s what I was taught in Pony Club.[/QUOTE]
Correct…although they don’t really stop it much. Many of my past horses and my current horse go XC (all three phases really) in a loose ring snaffle. He is super sensitive skin but still doesn’t get rubs…would probably GET rubs with bit guards. I’ve had jumpers that needed bit guards… just depends on the horse.
A loose ring snaffle probably wouldn’t affect your score at all…but a D-ring is more common. That said…there IS a difference in feel to a loose ring and a D-ring. I have horses that go better in a loose ring and others that prefer a D-ring.
The bit shouldn’t matter in an Eq class as long as you can ride effectively and smoothly in it.
Hoping not to derail but, speaking of nonconventional in the eq, where does a kimberwicke fall on the scale? Because the second-place horse in the THIS medal was wearing one.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/ElliYeagerDSC_6367.jpg
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8337969]
But guards are typically only used in the gaited horse world. I don’t know too many dressage people that put them on their horse. I never do. I think it looks silly and I feel like their pointless. I’m sure someone has had a point in their riding where they served their purpose, but I’ve always ridden without them and have never had an issue.[/QUOTE]
Bit guards are illegal in the dressage ring so that’s probably why you don’t see them with the dressage riders. I don’t use bit guards on my loose ring. It hasn’t been an issue with pinching and also I don’t want to forget to remove them at get myself eliminated at an event.
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8338677]
Wow. Who knew my opinion would turn into such a big deal. They are just that. My OPINION. Everyone has one. I find bit guards silly and pointless. Doesn’t mean I don’t respect your use for them. I’ve never needed one. And just because something is illegal in the show ring doesn’t mean it’s not used at home.
Girl asked for opinions, so I gave mine. If her horse can be ridden in her plain loose ring, do it. No need for people to jump on me for my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing people are reactive because the OP was asking specifically about the USET Talent Search, not just an eq class at a local schooling show. The classes are a big deal. When the stakes are higher, people look for a higher degree of expertise in the replies.
[QUOTE=snaffle635;8339322]
I’m guessing people are reactive because the OP was asking specifically about the USET Talent Search, not just an eq class at a local schooling show. The classes are a big deal. When the stakes are higher, people look for a higher degree of expertise in the replies.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=Rel6;8337981]
I think its funny that someone would automatically look at a loose ring and assume it meant the horse was simple or uncomplicated when there could be a double twisted wire in the mouth piece! And from further away where a judge is sitting it would make sense because you’re not going to be able to see the details on the the side of their mouth.[/QUOTE]
Because the market for loose rings today is mostly dressage horses, you’d have to look long and hard to find one with a twist, and to get one that looked like a loose ring but was double twisted wire, you’d probably have to have it custom made. So, in this case, it’s not a terrible assumption.
(That said, it’s not a good way to judge, because you can’t know that about every bit in the class. Best to just let the performance speak for itself and not worry about what legal bit was chosen.)
Fun fact. When I was a kid, everyone who was anyone showed their hunters in a full cheek snaffle. That was the bit that made the best picture… it had taken over from the eggbutt snaffles that everyone used in the 60’s.
And then. There was a Jumping Clinic column in Practical Horseman, written by GM, and he mentioned how happy he was to see a horse jumping in a nice plain uncomplicated D-ring snaffle. At the time, you see, they were racing bits, and they only came in plain mouthpieces, rubber, or with those copper rollers, and the copper roller had a little different D shape, so you could easily tell which was which. He probably thought nothing of it, was just trying to fill a little space and say something nice. 
Well. Within a couple of years, you could buy any mouthpiece you wanted with D ring sides, up to twisted wire, and they all looked alike from the side. The D ring changed to be a little more flattering shape, too, from the original racing D. And EVERYONE who was anyone was using a D-ring, as the new “traditional and only” bit choice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I have always used loose rings for training, and a couple of my jumpers showed in them.
If you ride well and your horse does all of the things necessary to be competitive in the USET class…the bit will not matter.
I think you see a lot of Pelhams because they allow for a sophisticated and smooth ride. I bet most of those horses would also go just fine in a loose ring snaffle but the Pelham just gives their rider a bit more control with less effort and those horses do not object to it.
So I still think the answer is obvious (use what works best for the horse and rider and is within the rules). I would think the focus of the bigger classes with better judging would make it clear. It shouldn’t be about trends. That said…you are likely paying a trainer for their advice and this would be something I would discuss with them. It may depend on the judge and your trainer likely has that sort of insight. It may not hurt to see how your horse goes in a D ring or even a Pelham. You may be surprised by what they like.
[QUOTE=poltroon;8339350]
Because the market for loose rings today is mostly dressage horses, you’d have to look long and hard to find one with a twist, and to get one that looked like a loose ring but was double twisted wire, you’d probably have to have it custom made. So, in this case, it’s not a terrible assumption.[/QUOTE]
I consider myself a bit collector. Over the years, I’ve found variations of the loose ring snaffle have been the easiest to find…including a loose ring double twisted wire snaffle (on the left). Though, it is a bit I have never personally used. It just hangs in my tack room. Although, I’ve had a few friends over the years who have borrowed it for one horse or another. I should note that most of my bits are 20+ years old. If you enter “loose ring double twisted wire snaffle” into Google, you will find all kinds of websites that sell them and variations of it.
Ironically, nearly all the horses/ponies we own and show go in rubber snaffles!
^^^^ tee hee, s/he said ‘sniffles’.
[QUOTE=snaffle635;8339371]
^^^^ tee hee, s/he said ‘sniffles’. :-)[/QUOTE]
LOL Damn auto correct on my iPad. :lol::lol:
Well, yes, Daventry, but the loose ring double twisted wires are super obviously wire from the side view when worn by the horse. They don’t masquerade as something nice.
[QUOTE=poltroon;8339384]
Well, yes, Daventry, but the loose ring double twisted wires are super obviously wire from the side view when worn by the horse. They don’t masquerade as something nice. :)[/QUOTE]
I never said they weren’t noticeable from the side?? I was simply pointed out that they are commonly found and not a custom made to order bit.
[QUOTE=Daventry;8339390]
I never said they weren’t noticeable from the side?? I was simply pointed out that they are commonly found and not a custom made to order bit. ;)[/QUOTE]
I guess I wasn’t clear in my original post, that you’d have to custom make them to look like a plain loose ring snaffle, the point of the quote I was working from being that based on the side profile you could assume it was likely a soft bit.
I rode a pony in one of those when I was a kid. Didn’t make a darn bit of difference. If the pony wanted to duck left around the vertical and run back to the barn, didn’t matter what hardware she had in her mouth… :lol: Great pony when she was in the mood though.
[QUOTE=poltroon;8339350]
Because the market for loose rings today is mostly dressage horses, you’d have to look long and hard to find one with a twist, and to get one that looked like a loose ring but was double twisted wire, you’d probably have to have it custom made. [/QUOTE]
Actually, twisted mouthpieces are very easy to find in a loose ring variety. I’ve even seen a few that don’t look twisted from the sides. It’s really not that hard to find.
[QUOTE=Peggy;8339247]
Hoping not to derail but, speaking of nonconventional in the eq, where does a kimberwicke fall on the scale? Because the second-place horse in the THIS medal was wearing one.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/ElliYeagerDSC_6367.jpg[/QUOTE]
Is the rein in a slot? I can’t tell on my phone
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