Low low lowest level dressage test

[endlessclimb]

I’m glad that you, having not seen the ride at all, are more qualified to comment on it than I am, when I and watched the whole thing.

But you’re right, not a judge.

[SillyHorse]

@endlessclimb

I’m glad that you, having not seen the ride at all, are more qualified to comment on it than I am, when I and watched the whole thing.

I don’t believe I have commented about the actual ride. If I’m mistaken and I did comment about the actual ride, please point it out to me.

[Djones]

@SillyHorse

Of course it does. You are saying what you think the scores should have been. If you’re not a trained judge, your opinion in that area isn’t relevant.

Hogwash.

If one is a seasoned competitor in a judged competition, one should be knowledgeable about how one should be evaluated. One should know what is expected of a competitor if one seeks to earn good scores. What makes a maneuver a 7 vs a 9? What will get one disqualified? Where are places in a test one can claim ‘easy points’ or lose them because one didn’t grasp the point?

Honestly- you aren’t getting dropped into an episode of Naked and Afraid, where the PSR score is some nonsense made up behind the scenes and left opaque.

[Scribbler]

@Djones

@SillyHorse

Of course it does. You are saying what you think the scores should have been. If you’re not a trained judge, your opinion in that area isn’t relevant.

Hogwash.

If one is a seasoned competitor in a judged competition, one should be knowledgeable about how one should be evaluated. One should know what is expected of a competitor if one seeks to earn good scores. What makes a maneuver a 7 vs a 9? What will get one disqualified? Where are places in a test one can claim ‘easy points’ or lose them because one didn’t grasp the point?

Honestly- you aren’t getting dropped into an episode of Naked and Afraid, where the PSR score is some nonsense made up behind the scenes and left opaque.

Yes.

With the caveat that unless you video your rides you may not be aware of all the bobbles you made that the judge saw.

I want to add that there’s a difficulty in judging very low classes, say trot poles or crossrsils, or walk trot and even Training level dressage.

In the training progression for these levels no one is stating horses need to be round of collected in dressage, or bascule or even count strides in a trot crossrails class. So really the performance would look very different from a third level dressage test or a 3 foot hunter round. A green dressage horse looks just like a green jumper in way of going.

But in dressage at least its possible to have disciplinary creep. Especially as lots of dressage riders show below their horses level. A nervous rider can take a well schooled horse in walk trot or training and horse will carry himself in a more educated way. I certainly know adult ammies who are “schooling parts of second” but aren’t comfortable showing above Training. So having this mix of horses, plus untrained judges that don’t understand the progression, is going to complicate results. If the judge rewards the 2nd or Third level horse who brings carriage and ryhtmn into a walk trot class with an ammie, then does the true green horse suffer in comparison?

It’s always an issue when a class gets so basic that the riders aren’t really expected to display any of the attributes of the actual discipline, like for instance canter.

[Djones]

Riding a straight centerline is a challenge at any level on a fresh horse on a cold, blustery day

However there is little less fun to scribe than hours of intro A and B in a large arena. Kill me now…

[outerbanks77]

@Lunabear1988

I was watching a clinic session with Debbie McDonald a few weeks ago. She was teaching a rider with a 5 year old horse. I won’t quote her exactly but she did say something to the effect of never get too picky about the halt on a green/young horse. Immobile, into the hand and relatively square is good enough. But to try and get perfection too early can cause a halt to be stressful on the young horse.

There are two ways to achieve a square halt: 1) horse remains engaged and stops onto both hind legs, or 2) horse stops, then rearranges the errant feet to square. If a horse is trained for it, they can achieve the second one pretty quickly, and it might almost look like the first way. However, the point of dressage is to develop the horse to the point of engagement where the square halt is a by-product of using the hind legs equally and remaining engaged in the halt. I wouldn’t expect much in that regards until 1st/2nd level. Keeping the centerline and halt straight is enough challenge for an Intro/Training horse, IMO, and better for the progression of training than trying to pick up an extra point or two by teaching the horse to shuffle itself to square (especially if it just one judge at C, and the shuffling can look more like an unclear/fidgety halt).

[yaya]

@endlessclimb

Agreed. I don’t need excessive complimentary stuff either, I want constructive comments.

The judge in question for me - rung me out before the first movement because my horse was “lame”, I contested it with the show management, the vet came to inspect and agreed with me, and I had to do my ride over from the start. Problem was my mare was really particular about her warmup and so with the schedule rocked she did reeeeeeally poorly on the second go-round.

Same “lame” mare jumped two rounds that day clear, then did the whole thing over the following day under a new judge (who, gasp, didn’t ring us out!), and went home sound. (we won the second day, because her warm up wasn’t all fudged up…grr )

Lame. Give me a break. Same judge wrote on a kid’s test about the “roundness” thing you mention. It was an intro test, with a teensy tiny kid on a maybe 10hh pony. Way to be constructive, buddy.

This must have been a schooling show that doesn’t follow USEF rules (ours do follow the rules, even though they are unrecognized shows). Under USEF rules, a judge’s determination of lameness cannot be challenged or overturned. (DR122.6)

[Scribbler]

A few years ago I got to ride an older dressage mistress mare. I found that if I rode her correctly she would halt square and if I rode her sloppy she would actually fall off the track and halt crooked. But the components of riding her correctly wouldn’t work on a very green horse.

[SillyHorse]

@Djones

@SillyHorse

Of course it does. You are saying what you think the scores should have been. If you’re not a trained judge, your opinion in that area isn’t relevant.

Hogwash.

If one is a seasoned competitor in a judged competition, one should be knowledgeable about how one should be evaluated. One should know what is expected of a competitor if one seeks to earn good scores. What makes a maneuver a 7 vs a 9? What will get one disqualified? Where are places in a test one can claim ‘easy points’ or lose them because one didn’t grasp the point?

Honestly- you aren’t getting dropped into an episode of Naked and Afraid, where the PSR score is some nonsense made up behind the scenes and left opaque.

Everyone who thinks that simply walking and trotting around the ring with fairly accurate geometry and the head “not like a giraffe” deserves 6s and 7s, I urge you to audit an “L” program.

[outerbanks77]

It’s funny - my green WB mare tends to halt square most of the time, but it’s still a challenge to keep her from swinging her haunches to the left. My QH mare will halt pretty straight, but usually leaves her right hind back somewhere around A when we’re halting at X.

[Djones]

I said no such thing. I recommend a remedial “reading for comprehension” course of your choice.

[SillyHorse]

I didn’t claim YOU said that. But you and others are backing up endlessclimb’s assertion that the ride deserved better than 5s.

[Lunabear1988]

Aren’t we talking about Intro A?

[Scribbler]

Isn’t the point more that the actual requirements of riding a pre Training level baby intro test do not include having the horse collected or even pulled into a false frame to look “round” because the horse is assumed to not be at that stage in the training sequence? And an uneducated judge who imposes inappropriate standards isn’t very useful?

[Djones]

I specifically quoted what you wrote that I took umbrage with…and it wasn’t about endless climb’s observations of the pony. Again…reading is fundamental.

If someone has been riding, studying, and competing ‘successfully’ - meaning one typically understands why they scored (insert value) on (insert maneuver) in a given test on a given day…then yeah, they are capable of expressing a considered opinion. You act like they just rolled out of the pumpkin patch and bonked around an arena with letters and got scored.

[SillyHorse]

Oh for pete’s sake, I never suggested any kind of collection or false “frame,” or any kind of “frame” at all.

But endlessclimb has never said that 40 lb. child on a tiny pony had it moving with “a steady tempo into an elastic contact with independent, steady hands and a correctly balanced seat.” Those are the requirements of the level. She has said that there was decent geometry and the pony’s head was not like a giraffe, and therefore 5s were unfair.

She also wrote this:

@endlessclimb

Outside of not performing the movement, what could possibly have happened during that ride to warrant a 4? or a 3?

which indicates she knows little about dressage scoring.

[MadTrotter]

This is a problem across the board in “competitive” areas. People park out in intro and TL for wayyyyyyy too long. Which doesn’t make any sense for people who are paranoid about getting ribbons, since the lowest levels are packed. I guess it’s medal chasing now?

I’ve taken some relative green beans in 1st once they are fairly relaxed, straight, forward, can balance themselves and can do the movements, why not? More than one judge has remarked that they wished more people would try and reach a bit.

[Janet]

@SillyHorse

Here I will disagree. This pair should be judged under the same guidelines as any other pair.

Agree. But in an Intro test the judge shouldn’t be EXPECTING “roundness”, whether it is a “teensy kid on a 10 h pony” or a 40 year old adult on a 16 h wamblood.

[Djones]

@SillyHorse

Oh for pete’s sake, I never suggested any kind of collection or false “frame,” or any kind of “frame” at all.

But endlessclimb has never said that 40 lb. child on a tiny pony had it moving with “a steady tempo into an elastic contact with independent, steady hands and a correctly balanced seat.” Those are the requirements of the level. She has said that there was decent geometry and the pony’s head was not like a giraffe, and therefore 5s were unfair.

She also wrote this:

@endlessclimb

Outside of not performing the movement, what could possibly have happened during that ride to warrant a 4? or a 3?

which indicates she knows little about dressage scoring.

Fair enough- upon rereading- perhaps whoever sent the wee one into the sandbox did roll out of a pumpkin patch. At least by putting them in front of a judge at a SCHOOLING show where (IMO) most judges would be biased toward kindness to the wee one.

[Scribbler]

@Djones

@SillyHorse

Oh for pete’s sake, I never suggested any kind of collection or false “frame,” or any kind of “frame” at all.

But endlessclimb has never said that 40 lb. child on a tiny pony had it moving with “a steady tempo into an elastic contact with independent, steady hands and a correctly balanced seat.” Those are the requirements of the level. She has said that there was decent geometry and the pony’s head was not like a giraffe, and therefore 5s were unfair.

She also wrote this:

@endlessclimb

Outside of not performing the movement, what could possibly have happened during that ride to warrant a 4? or a 3?

which indicates she knows little about dressage scoring.

Fair enough- upon rereading- perhaps whoever sent the wee one into the sandbox did roll out of a pumpkin patch. At least by putting them in front of a judge at a SCHOOLING show where (IMO) most judges would be biased toward kindness to the wee one.

I got the impression the only comment given to tot was “not round enough” which is inappropriate for that level and indeed useless at any level, without more coherent comments. And that the judge wasn’t accredited.