Lucinda Green clinic

[beowulf]

I have to agree with Lucinda on that… I think straightness over fences is important as a basic, but is not important when you are trying to develop yours and the horse’s fifth leg… which is what her clinics do. If you always have a perfect ride in perfect manicured footing and perfectly distanced fences you will never improve… and you will be screwed over the larger fences when you and your horse have never had to whip out the fifth-leg-card…

The exercise she teaches teaches you how to handle it when sh^t hits the fan. You can’t always approach a fence, especially not at the UL, perfectly straight. Building small blocks of confidence during these scenarios where the approach is never perfect is the best way to develop and ensure safety critical thinking and balance over larger fences as you go up the levels, IMHO.

[JER]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8549243]
I have to agree with Lucinda on that… I think straightness over fences is important as a basic, but is not important when you are trying to develop yours and the horse’s fifth leg.[/QUOTE]

This is not how you develop a fifth leg. IME and IMO, there is no more important time for instilling the concept of straightness in a horse. A horse that isn’t straight simply doesn’t have a stride that will be longitudinally adjustable.

@beowulf;8549243

If you always have a perfect ride in perfect manicured footing and perfectly distanced fences you will never improve… and you will be screwed over the larger fences when you and your horse have never had to whip out the fifth-leg-card.

I’m not sure what the above has to do with straightness. I’ve done loads of hunting and trails and prefer schooling on varied terrain and footing to schooling in the ring. What I’ve learned is that you will be screwed over fences both large and small if your horse isn’t consistently straight. Sure, you’ll see people ride this way, with no regard for straightness and expecting the horse to save their collective ass at every jump. But it’s not correct, it’s not safe, and often results in the horse throwing in the towel at some point.

@beowulf;8549243

The exercise she teaches teaches you how to handle it when sh^t hits the fan.

IME, you don’t practice how to cope with the sht hitting the fan by throwing sht at the fan. You give your horse the confidence and security of straightness, and in a bad situation, they’ll be in the right place to figure it out and look after themselves. They won’t be fearing that the rider will make things even worse for them. This is why it’s really good for most horses to go hunting, and do trails, and work on terrain and varied footing and hills.

@beowulf;8549243

You can’t always approach a fence, especially not at the UL, perfectly straight.

Yes, you can. And really, you should if you value your safety. Your approach isn’t always going to be perfect, true, but if the horse is straight and maintains straightness, the horse has the best chance to adjust his stride/balance and make it work.

@beowulf;8549243

Building small blocks of confidence during these scenarios where the approach is never perfect is the best way to develop and ensure safety critical thinking and balance over larger fences as you go up the levels, IMHO.

I agree with the above, but only if the horse has learned to be straight. Which is not the case in LG’s exercises.

A few years back, LG went to Michael Jung’s yard to see his methods. Michael Jung rides much in the same manner as Mike Plumb - all about balance, straightness and meeting the fence on a good stride. Lucinda was not very complimentary of his training; it was very much a clash of styles. I have to say that I’m with the Michaels on this one.

[CatchMeIfUCan]

Here is a decently long video of a pro riding a green OTTB in a clinic with her at Full Gallop last year. Mare is obviously super athletic. Lucinda thought she was the real deal for a four star horse so is different than a normal BN horse, but the video gives you an idea of the exercises.

http://youtu.be/sIEXtspUuFk

Here is the game pony in the same group:

http://youtu.be/hSk_0__uNSs

And also a fox hunter:

http://youtu.be/cb3cFzz7nd0

Both are ridden by pros.

[subk]

This is one of the rare occasion I see this differently than JER…Straightness is a very advanced concept. In the 2 to 3 training scales I know of it is at the top or near the top of achievements in a progressive system. And while it is certainly an ideal that should be a beacon for our work, most young horses simply aren’t straight–they have neither the consistency or physicality to be able to maintain it for more than a few moments at a time, if that. So I just can’t buy that you can’t make progress without straightness–when straightness is generally the end point of progress not the starting point.

Problem solving leads to confidence which leads to having the ability to think for yourself. What Lucinda does is put horses in positions in which they need to think for themselves to get through the problem. They do. Then they build confidence. The fundamental element of a “5th leg” is that a horse has the confidence in an awkward moment to think for themselves and solve a problem on their own.

When I try out a young horse one of the interesting things I want to know is what happens if we canter up to a fence without a lot of support and without me making any effort to ride to a distance. You would be surprised how often the loveliest horses ridden by the most accomplished riders fall on their face without the help. The pro horses fail this much more often than the amateur ride. It’s a little like when parents are over managing school work–the kids are so much better off having to struggle a bit and then problem solve their own way through of it (even if they make a B instead of an A!) If they are alway put at a perfect distance with perfect balance they don’t have much experience problem solving since they are never allowed to have problems.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I do disagree with MJ and other systems that always require the rider to put a horse to a perfect distance at least in the training of a young horse…but I do agree with helping a horse to be balanced and straight. You use gymnastics to help a horse balance themselves and find their footwork. It must be progressively done to be fair and confidence building. Dressage also helps development as well. A rider has to have timing jumping so as not to throw off the balance of the horse. But you don’t always pick a take off in practice. It doesn’t mean a rider never will…you do need to develop and eye for distances but you also have to develop your horse’s eye through exercises as they are far better at it than us AND they are the one jumping.

All that said…I think it is important to keep an open mind. To ride with new people and to hear things said differently. One system is not perfect for everyone or every horse. And something can be learned from all good trainers like LG.

OP…have fun. If you have any doubts…audit the clinic instead of riding. You will still learn either way.

ETA: I agree very much with Subk on this.

[JER]

[QUOTE=subk;8549668]
And while it is certainly an ideal that should be a beacon for our work, most young horses simply aren’t straight–they have neither the consistency or physicality to be able to maintain it for more than a few moments at a time, if that. [/QUOTE]

Which is why you trot fences from a straight approach until the horse has longitudinal adjustability in canter.

The concept of straightness is progressive, just like bend or self-carriage. I think the version at the top of your training tree is probably the more advanced version that you build up to.

@subk;8549668

When I try out a young horse one of the interesting things I want to know is what happens if we canter up to a fence without a lot of support and without me making any effort to ride to a distance. You would be surprised how often the loveliest horses ridden by the most accomplished riders fall on their face without the help.

But if the horse has been ridden with straightness in mind, the horse shouldn’t unravel without rider support. That’s one of the major points of straightness – that the horse can maintain on its own.

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8549755]
I’m do disagree with MJ and other systems that always require the rider to put a horse to a perfect distance at least in the training of a young horse…but I do agree with helping a horse to be balanced and straight. [/QUOTE]

I don’t think ‘require’ is the correct word. Riders like MJ and JMP have the skills not to put the horse at a bad distance, and they use that skill in training their horses and building their horses’ confidence.

Mike Plumb likes to warm up his horses with some lunging over fences, but the lunge line is mostly ceremonial as the horse is on its own. (He does this in a large unenclosed field usually, you can see Zizi here and Mio here.) The horse chooses the distance, and jumps however it likes. The horse usually has a little routine of their own (like Zizi tapping the rail with her feet) to get ready for work.

The point is, even in a system like this, the horse is expected to look after itself. However, it’s the consistent ride – straightness and balance – that lets the horse get to the fence consistently in the right place to make a good jump.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=JER;8549905]

The point is, even in a system like this, the horse is expected to look after itself. However, it’s the consistent ride – straightness and balance – that lets the horse get to the fence consistently in the right place to make a good jump.

:)[/QUOTE]

YES! And I as noted above, there are degrees of straightness at all levels, and I suspect that all of us train toward straightness from the 1st time we sit on a baby horse.

I rode with Lucinda years ago and I liked her. These days, I watch a lot of her clinic videos online to get ideas for training at home. I sometimes set jumps up at odd distances to work on letting the horse “figure it out.” This is also for me since I tend to want to take over and set horses up - so I can work on getting over that.

These days, we tend to have more technical courses and tend to want to set up for everything. Lucinda is refreshing in reminding us that horses need to use their brains and footwork and make their own decisions. Same with Wofford, although their approaches are not that similar toward achieving this end.

For the 99% of us who do NOT have a strong eye for a fence, clinics with LG and JW are invaluable!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;8549905]
I don’t think ‘require’ is the correct word. Riders like MJ and JMP have the skills not to put the horse at a bad distance, and they use that skill in training their horses and building their horses’ confidence.

Mike Plumb likes to warm up his horses with some lunging over fences, but the lunge line is mostly ceremonial as the horse is on its own. (He does this in a large unenclosed field usually, you can see Zizi here and Mio here.) The horse chooses the distance, and jumps however it likes. The horse usually has a little routine of their own (like Zizi tapping the rail with her feet) to get ready for work.

The point is, even in a system like this, the horse is expected to look after itself. However, it’s the consistent ride – straightness and balance – that lets the horse get to the fence consistently in the right place to make a good jump.

:)[/QUOTE]

Yes but that is flaw in such system…the rider, no matter how good…will miss at some point. I prefer to train the horse from the beginning not to be used to perfect dictated to them…this is different than a BAD ride. This is not to say the rider can abdicate ever having a responsibility to see a distance…but in initial training over smaller fences…I think you want your horse to learn to jump confidently from a good distance they find themselves…by teaching them the good distance NOT by the rider putting them there but through the exercise. Sounds like JMP does some of that with free jumping…but they do also need to deal with the rider’s weight.

I’ve ridden with those that always aim to put their horse to a good distance (as opposed to letting the horse come to that good distance by keeping them straight, balanced and staying out of their way)…horses trained in that system are often VERY unforgiving of mistakes by a rider and when sold to a rider who isn’t as good, it often doesn’t go well. NO one is saying you train by riding badly and purposely putting your horse to a bad distance…or make their life harder by screwing up their balance by jumping ahead or getting left or rushing them off their feet. It is a difference in view of micro managing the take off point or not. I find a horse is better trained when I hasn’t been micro managed about jumping…NOT a horse who has been ridden badly. And at a competition…and over the bigger fences…you want to work together…and hopefully the rider AND the horse both are seeing the same distance.

ETA: And I disagree that JW doesn’t want you to see a distance. He doesn’t want you to dictate a distance on a green horse. But if you are riding at Training+…he expects you to develop your eye…which comes by riding straight, in balance and in a rhythm. And will have you work on that at the same time. And Hell yes he will yell at an experienced rider screwing up a distance and not able to help your horse. He just also believes in training a HORSE to see a distance too. That is the hole I see in some pros programs… JW wants a rider to be on the same page as their horse…and that comes by developing an eye for a distance with both.

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8549968]
horses trained in that system are often VERY unforgiving of mistakes by a rider and when sold to a rider who isn’t as good, it often doesn’t go well. [/QUOTE]

This is interesting. We got to test this concept last summer when we took Zizi and her sister to the Pan Am Games for the modern pentathlon competition. We knew the riding in the competition wasn’t going to be the greatest – actually, we knew there’d be some terrible riders in the field and we knew the course was going to be difficult.

Zizi was a superstar with both of her riders. (One had ridden her before because she went to NC to work with JMP.) Her second rider was not especially skilled – very kick and go – but Zizi took care of her by jumping extra high and careful. It was quite thrilling to watch because we never test her to her limits and she really does have springs for legs.

Nina had less luck in the draw. Her first rider was an okay rider but didn’t bother to walk the difficult, no let-up course (:eek:) so put her at all kinds of crazy wrong distances. Nina went around nice and forward, but knocked several rails. Her second rider pulled on the mouth, leaned on the neck, and sat askew in the saddle but Nina kept going without hesitation.

We thought it was a great experience for both mares, Nina especially, because she’s a real princess who expects everything to be perfect and sulks when it’s not. But she sorted herself out in a real-time, pressured situation and did her job.

But to bring this back to the original topic, the mares’ success in an imperfect situation was proof to me of a sound training system – the mares had the confidence in themselves to go forward and make it work.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;8550014]

But to bring this back to the original topic, the mares’ success in an imperfect situation was proof to me of a sound training system – the mares had the confidence in themselves to go forward and make it work.[/QUOTE]

My point wasn’t one bad ride…any good horse should deal with one or two bad rides if properly trained to go forward. What I saw not working was horses stopping more out xc. I personally think it is a combination. Horses are either naturally generous…or not. And honestly…JMP’s system does not sound quite the same as MJ and others who believe the rider should always pick the distance since he does free jump his horses. But I would expect ANY decently trained horse to jump a course in the context you described. Schooled with good rides right before the crappy ride around one course.

ETA: Most horses trained in any system will start stopping if ridden BADly on a consistent basis. But horses trained by micro managing often loose their confidence quicker when then put with a rider who can’t yet see their distance as well to help them in the LONG run…unless a good rider is always getting on and re-schooling. Those horses consider an ok distance as a miss…and loose trust fast. Some get over it…and most will if the rider doesn’t get in their way…but I’ve seen others who just quit…especially xc.

[subk]

[QUOTE=JER;8549890]
But if the horse has been ridden with straightness in mind, the horse shouldn’t unravel without rider support. That’s one of the major points of straightness – that the horse can maintain on its own.[/QUOTE]
But that’s the whole point. I can usually ride a horse with straightness…balance…impulsion or whatever you generally want that is within the capacity of the horse. What I can’t do is do that 100% of the time–like Jung can. Unfortunately, my horses are being trained to be ridden by someone who is just a good rider as oppose to a great rider and it seems reasonable to me to give them a little prep for when things aren’t just right.

[Winding_Down]

Jung does not always set a young horse up for a fence. He doesn’t have. He does make sure that the horse has a quality canter from which it can jump out of from any distance. Watch him ride young horses and you will see that …

Most riders not only cannot see a distance, but they also cannot establish or recognize a good canter… but I digress.

[JP60]

IME, you don’t practice how to cope with the sht hitting the fan by throwing sht at the fan.

Best line I’ve read in awhile. However, folks who perform recurrent training for airline pilots (and astronauts) may differ slightly. Still, I agree with the thought.

I love this discussion, since the major players typing train horses and y’all do have different approaches to the basics. Gaining a lot just reading. Were I to chime in as not a Trainer, but as a rider who is being taught to help “train” my rather experienced horse visa vi my trainer, I have to agree more with JER, but I get with the others are saying.

All the time I am reminded about straightness, and the quality canter that will be the foundation for all good jumping. Given how crooked I am as an adult rider, it is amazing we have any straightness at all (it is damn hard work getting this back straight), but when we do, no matter the twists and turns, the strides, it just seems that Sterling jumps better, with more confidence.

I get LG’s thought of what horse is straight which implies work with what ya got, but having spent a long time on the effort of riding straight, with balance and a good canter, those three things are the 5th leg for horse (and rider). It’s like when I was learning to fly, my trainer didn’t throw “problems” at me to solve in the beginning, instead he taught me to aviate, fly the plane in balance so I understood what balanced meant. Once established he could then introduce more and more complex tasks including a stall which, now that I knew what constituted a balanced plane, I could get back to that state very quick.

I’d also comment that in watching MJ ride, whatever his program is, works. The smoothness, both horse and rider, is inspirational. I’m not much into clinics (at my level), but I’d consider going to a MJ session, even if he’d need a gas mask while watching us :lol:

[JER]

[QUOTE=JP60;8552925]
However, folks who perform recurrent training for airline pilots (and astronauts) may differ slightly. [/QUOTE]

This is why they have flight simulators.

[beowulf]

calm seas don’t make skilled sailors. LG doesn’t give you four maxed out fences and tell you “fend for yourselves”. she gives you small, technical fences and develops confidence. I think you took what I said a little too literally and harped on it – there is nothing wrong with proposing small, technical fences to really get a horse thinking for themselves.

for riders who have OCD and perfectionist issues, I can see why they don’t like her because she will expose your EVERY flaw. But that doesn’t make her any less of a clinician.

[Lusoluv]

As a mainly dressage rider now dabbling in low level eventing, I like what I’ve seen of Lucinda and Denny Emmerson. Slightly different approaches, but I like that they give the horse and rider permission to not be perfect.

As has been stated here, that doesn’t mean let the strides turn to mush or put your horse in crooked or careless. It means focus on the 3 or 4 things that are absolutely required and then see what happens. Well started, correctly ridden horses can figure their way through an 18" grid or set of logs or jumps if the rider sits up and keeps their own balance in harmony with the horse.

My dressage skillz have helped me bond/communicate with my new youngish mare (6yrs). She is already jumping confidently 2’6" indoors and out after 5 months. I feel competent in a small group lesson where most of the other riders jumping & showing 2’6" ~ 3’3", and they still have position and straightness issues. They come from the jumper-only background and tend to ride their horse’s mouths, staying in 2-point. I’m learning that riding a quality stride, using dressage to straighten my horse and having a patient, independent seat are the most important traits at mine and my horse’s level.

[LisaB]

Her clinic is titled “Riding the safe way”. Not riding the correct way. She instills confidence in both the rider and horse. I have yet to see a pair come away from her clinic feeling scared. And I’ve watched her clinics for years.
And she admits that she’s more in tuned with the horse than making the rider perfect. She watches the horse more than anything.
And this year’s clinic, she raised her voice at a rider that wasn’t reacting to her directions and was all over the place.
The best rider I saw was a lady in the bn group with a draft x that Lucinda adored. The rider had been doing like pilates or something back home and she asked her about her exercise routine because she was fit and pliable and didn’t get in the horse’s way. And the draftie was not quick on his feet but seemed to be enjoying himself and that’s what she likes to see.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=JER;8553001]
This is why they have flight simulators. :)[/QUOTE]
and so do we

http://alwaysagoodride.com/

http://alwaysagoodride.com/the-event-simulator/

Now can we throw poop at the fan? :lol:

[Janet]

Just got back from Lucinda’s clinic at Wingreen (VA) with my green 5 yo.

This year the exercises were much more conventional.

No “random” distances.

No jump-from-a-walk.

Lots of low skinnies (less than 4 feet of face).

Courses that require accurate steering.

All adjusted to the particular skills and weaknesses.

We only went over the head of the arrowhead once, the easy way.

We did have a very slight corner.

On the second day, we warmed up over our own choice of low cross country jumps.

Then we worked on banks, including a small sunken road.

Then a small course that included a jump on a steep up slope, and a log drop.

Then we jumped the water, working on confidence. A couple of the horses had major meltdowns, but worked through it.

We finished up with ditches, but ran out of time to do much with them.