I have to chime in on this thread because just recently I joined a FB group with OTTBs for sale. In the last day or so every single horse listed there is 17H. And none of them look that big to me. What is going on??
[QUOTE=netg;8102805]
… The ideal horse fits so the widest part of the barrel is at the same point as your knee. …[/QUOTE]
Stirrup length can help with that. And yet another salute to rider fitness, accommodating long legs & short stirrup leathers! :winkgrin:
Referring to video of WFP going around big courses … his stirrup length places his leg where he wants it, and as a result his rear is often in the air far back of the cantle. Contrast with the more modest stature of Mary King - same basics, executed appropriate to length of body parts. 
They both know how to make it work. 
I sell,horses and strive to be as accurate as possible…but I can stick a horse in the Same wash stall w/ same metal stick every day for a week and get slightly different heights…I can also stick 2 horses and swear one is 16.1 and the other 15.3 and be totally wrong…long legs less body depth and flatter withers verses short legs deeper body shark fin withers…It’s a crap,shot…I measured a filly accurately at 15.3 and 2 ladies who were very petite bought her…they sticked her at the PPE and informed their Vet she was 16.2… I started to correct them and their Vet kicked my leg an said the Buyer is Always Right!!
And some of us short people want smaller horses (somehow we always seem to end up with the tall ones lol). But a bigger horse does not equal a bigger jump–but are often times less maneuverable and harder to ride in tight combinations. Teddy O’Conner was a 14.1 3?4 pony that competed at Rolex! Moral of the story: Advertise the horse as they are, especially when they’re facts that don’t change, like height.
I sold a 14.2-and-a-half pony last summer…so very close to the forbidden “hony” range. He had potential to be a large pony hunter, but that half-inch could be a problem. I was upfront with all potential buyers about his height-- saying that a wise trainer from the hunter pony world (not me!) could possibly get him to measure for a pony card, but I made no guarantees.
Like judy said, I could measure him every week on the same blacktop surface and get a different number…one day he’d be 14.2 on the dot, the next time closer to 14.3 (but never over 14.3). The “trainer” who came to buy him did mostly dressage but dabbled in selling hunters. She agreed to buy him so long as he sticked under 14.3. She showed up, I brought out my aluminum stick with level bubble.
I stood the pony up square while she held the stick…and watched as she measured him BEHIND the wither, just behind the shoulder blade where the saddle tree points would go…making him seem 14.1. :eek: I stammered, started to correct her, but she had the attitude of “I KNOW WHAT I’M DOING DON’T INTERRUPT ME.” She pronounced him “easily a large pony,” she rode him and promptly bought him with no vet check (he was dirt cheap anyway).
If the buyer measures the horse and does it wrong, is that the seller’s fault? Had the pony been legitimately oversize by more than half an inch, I would have corrected her measuring “technique,” attitude or not. I don’t know if the pony ever made it to shows, or just ended up being her daughter’s pet.
As a rule, I measure at least twice before I advertise a horse of a certain height. They DO measure differently on certain days, and I want something reliably accurate for buyers to expect. Height shouldn’t matter much, but to some people it does…and no sense wasting anyone’s time if the horse is not as described.
Mine is the other direction from usual. She was sold to me as 16.2 or 16.3. She’s an easy 17, possibly over with muscling up.
Why say she was smaller? I’m 5’3"… Great horse though. Lovely temperament and tries her heart out
[QUOTE=Fractious Fox;8100609]
I’ve enjoyed this thread because the height thing drives me nuts. I haven’t been in the market for a number of years now (thank goodness) but I had a heck of a time finding a horse that fit me. I am 5’10". Not the tallest woman by any means, but I have a long thigh measurement and a very long torso, and for once I wanted to be on a horse that FELT RIGHT. So, I went looking for a horse that was close to 17 hands. Like everyone else experiences, this meant that I saw a bunch of horses that were smaller.
ANYWAY, I did stumble across (very accidentally) a horse that is a papered Thoroughbred who is, hand to God, 18 hands. This was the last time I checked. We (husband, trainer, vet, friends, any curious people) stopped measuring when he hit 18. His height was also measured at his PPX. I admit that this is a true fluke - we joke that he never received the notice that he was a TB! The crazy thing is that he was a foal that came out of a breeding of his sire to six mares at the same time. No other foal in that crop topped 16.3. His breeder retained him because he was just too big to sell willy nilly (she was right, people would start him too early and ruin him - aside from being tall he is just too nice of a horse to waste). She figured she would just keep him (she could do that, no problem).
So, I did find the 18h Thoroughbred and without even looking! Cracks me up that he never even had an ad posted, but through a recommendation made by another professional the owner and I made the connection.
Oh, and you can see his photo in my profile if you doubt me. Legs for miles, and no, I can’t see over his back.[/QUOTE]
I’m 5’10 too, and also have a TB advertised at 18h (height he was measured at off the track) and 18.1 at PPX- probably because his feet weren’t shaved down! I can’t see over his back, which is unheard of for me! I’ve had a bunch of 17.2 horses- no issues!
He had a few full siblings, all 1 year apart, none are larger than 16.1. I maintain my guy is half -elephant
I looked at three 16.3 horses for sale in one day. One was maybe 15.2, one looked spot on 16.3, and one was at least 17.2. I was astonished at the 17.2 horse, the seller said she didn’t want to scare anyone off with his size :eek:
[QUOTE=judybigredpony;8107708]
I sell,horses and strive to be as accurate as possible…but I can stick a horse in the Same wash stall w/ same metal stick every day for a week and get slightly different heights…I can also stick 2 horses and swear one is 16.1 and the other 15.3 and be totally wrong…long legs less body depth and flatter withers verses short legs deeper body shark fin withers…It’s a crap,shot…I measured a filly accurately at 15.3 and 2 ladies who were very petite bought her…they sticked her at the PPE and informed their Vet she was 16.2… I started to correct them and their Vet kicked my leg an said the Buyer is Always Right!![/QUOTE]
I was just going to add this. I KNOW for a fact horses heights CHANGE. When a horse fills its lungs with air at top speed their barrel expands up to 6 inches! Why wouldn’t the height change? Of course it does. Stick a horse before you gallop and immediately after. You will see sometimes as much as a half inch height difference. It is part of their body’s exercise mechanism - the horse has some of the biggest lungs of any mammal. The withers expand and contract with musculature and exercise as do other parts of the body.
Inre: height of rider/horse, it’s not so much what the horse will put up with or notice. It’s what mistakes on the rider’s part the horse is physically able to handle when the rubber meets the road. I adore catty, little horses and have spent much of my riding career on them. But I also have a lot of length in my upper body and a really big, erm, chest to control up there.
Changes in my position on the flat, even at speed, simply do not affect the horse as critically as my position into a fence. The less horse under me, the more pressure I feel to have my balance exactly right. It’s amazing how much of an effect even a couple of inches in the right places has on the pucker factor when you’re heading into a muddy xc fence (and I’m talking going from a well-sprung, trained, compact horse to a fish-shaped longer/taller greenie) because you can feel the horse is better able to compensate for rider error.
As a buyer, I don’t have a set height in mind since how big the motor is, how well the horse fits my leg, etc are all factors. Which, incidentally, seem to be things many sellers are nearly as unable to gauge accurately as height…
I sold a horse a while back to what I thought was a reputable trainer. The horse was later resold…and had mysteriously gained 2 inches in height.
Old thread, but the topic does not change! I didn’t expect to be horse hunting, but lost my best and youngest recently. To date I have looked at five horses. One was a friend’s horse. She is a horse pro, so he is as represented. The other four: despite POINTED but polite questions about height and how determined, all four were 3" less than advertised. We drove over 1200 miles to see these horses. They were also nutty, spoiled, and unsound. Here is today’s exchange, on horse number 6. How tall is she? Seller: 17 hands. Me: Hmmm. Looks about 15.3 in the photos. Seller: she is bigger than my 16 hand QH. Me: Can you measure her? Here is how to do it. Seller: Ok. Five minutes later. Seller: she is 15.2. That saved me 418 miles. Jeez. Also, the mare could possibly have been in foal. Me: when was she bred? Seller: due at end of this month. REALLY!!! No belly, no preg check…WTF people. The ignorance is staggering. And they are breeding. And breeding horses as well.
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Height is important to me for several reasons. So, when searching, I set a baseline height I will go see of at least 2 inches above what I am willing to settle for. Because almost without fail, the horse is actually at least 2 inches shorter than advertised, sometimes 3. That is in this part of the country with a LOT of casual western trail riders who are more familiar with horses in the 14.2-15.1hh range and radically over-estimate the height of taller horses. For the right horse, I might give that last inch on a purchase decision, but when deciding on a go-see even for a golden unicorn, I am hard & fast about the minimum advertised height.
I truly do believe that these owners believe the height is what they were told when they bought the horse. Few owners know how to get an accurate horse height measurement, with or without a stick. Most don’t have sticks or access to one.
When asking about a horse of interest, I do ask for a measurement, but don’t insist. I assume they don’t know how to measure anyway and it isn’t likely to be accurate. I just stick to my +2" go-see rule.
In this area a great many owners familiar with smaller horses think any horse of approaching 16hh is at least 16.2 or 16.3. They are guessing, but that stirrup seems a very long way up to them. The last one of those I visited was advertised as 16.3, sticked at barely 16.1, but was by far the tallest horse in that stable.
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Alot of people have no idea how to properly measure a horse…you need a metal not wooden stick and a flat solid surface…plus someone to stand the horse up correctly…I sold a filly who was all of 15.3+++ after the PPE they asked vet to fill out a form for their new barn manger…They stood there and sticked mare and Told Vet She was 16.2…LOL they read the numbers wrong…Vet shusshed me up and said Buyer is Always Right…
Mine is like that too. People swear she’s over 17h ALL the time. And she really does look bigger.
I keep re-measuring her and she’s a hair over 16.3 every time.
It probably doesn’t help the impression that I’m only 5’3"
No… The ribs are attached at a set location along the lumbar spine. The dorsal spinous processes are what create the withers. They are ABOVE where your horse’s ribs connect. If your horse’s ribs are rotating that high or floating up the spinous processes and even above them your horse is mush and likely decomposing. That pony ain’t galloping!
Your horse is “taller” after a gallop if he’s puffed up and proud. I can change my height by half an inch too, if I stand tall, stretch up and am peering at something.
Science!
Any way, came to tell my story. I own an honest to goodness 17 1.5" OTTB and I refuse to round up to 17.2. I sticked him just because everyone and their brother informed me he was 18+ - he is a big looking guy, but I actually also rode an 18.1 OTTB (also sticked) that my boss advertised as 18hh because no one believes a TB is 18hh, much less taller.
Any way, 17.1 1/2" pony and I went to a show and met an old riding acquaintance who is trying to become a riding pro (trying). We got to chatting and she asked me how tall my guy was. I told her and she proudly exclaimed “Oh! Mine is 17.2.”
There was an awkward moment of silence as I just stared. My horse was standing in a sand ring, her horse was standing above us, elevated about 2-3" because she was on the grass outside the ring. My horse clearly still had 1-2" on her.
I still don’t think she got it. Having a tall horse is very much a status symbol. I’m 5’8 with a long leg. My horse is very narrow sided so we are a good match but I am not kidding when I tell people my next will be 15.2.
It’s a pain to get the saddle up there, to adjust it, to get pads etc straight, and no matter how thoroughly I groom there is always mud I miss behind his ears. Luckily most clinicians can’t see that high on him either!
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Sure heights can change…not by 3" in a week. Or a foot in a year. Thing is, you will find everything TALLER then advertised when shopping for a height restricted division like Ponies or Small Juniors. Height can be very important, not just a fad, so, sellers, don’t advertise height unless you have a measurement card on it. Say “about”, “approx” or my favorite as a caption to a conformation still shot or in hand video with person standing next to it " handler is 5’8". That tells a knowledgeable buyer more then guessing at height or repeating what somebody else said. But don’t blame them for not traveling long distances if they are looking for a Small Junior or Pony unless you have permanent card in hand.
The other valid reason to shop with an eye on height is stride length and potential scope in a Hunter. While it’s not given a bigger horse has a longer stride, it’s unlikely a 15h horse will get around a 3’6" height and width course set for a 14’ step in a style pleasing to judges as well as a 16h+ horse. Yeah, point to a one in 1000 example but buyers don’t want to waste money looking at the other 999.
Its possible for one to be too big to look good getting around a Hunter course too, especially lower height/shorter lines. buyers are not hecessarily nuts in their concern for height shopping for a competition horse, especially one judged on style like Hunters. Or looking for one to showcase an Eq rider.
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Mine was exactly as advertised - 14.3. She has long legs and a big stride, so everyone thinks she’s taller than that.
I never really came across this one until my current competition horse. I guess I never really worried about size, I’m 5’3" so ponies/honys just made their way to me. Then I was forced to retire my mare (15’3) and start looking for my next partner. The gelding I eventually got was advertised as 16 hands. His people were very honest so I believe they honestly just eyeballed him. He’s somewhere in the 15.1 to 15.2hd range. But his personality and more whoa than go, Sunday strolling, dead last at every trail ride won me over.
The monster in my pasture is actually the Appy. We’ve had him since he was a 14 hd something yearling. He’s huge, I haven’t sticked him in awhile, but he is definitely taller than my mare so 16hds somewhere. Now I really want to put the stick on him and know for sure.
I do a lot of sales and I do honestly measure each of mine on level ground with the metal measuring stick because height is important to people. I laughed because recently I had one that was just 15.2 on the stick and I made sure I told the buyer several times…you do know he is small right??? She was shopping for something small but I just don’t want people to be upset about things like that. I have had some that are on the other end and are legit 17.2 h and people think I am making that up. I have gotten to the point of taking pictures of horses on the measuring stick just to make sure all parties are in agreement.
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I would appreciate seeing the stick on the horse in a video or still shot if I was shopping with specific limitations in mind. I think more sellers should quit guessing or at least show a person standing next to the horse and tell how tall that person is.
My worst experience was before the internet made this somewhat easier, 200 miles ( not including getting lost twice) each way on mostly country roads to see a 16h palomino QH. I wasn’t shopping for height or color but it sounded promising. 14.2, maybe. Brown with sunbleached mane and tail… No papers. It was a case of them just not knowing any better but, really…Used to be no way to research ad claims but that lesson stuck with me even with the advent of cell phones and the internet. I verify everything before setting out to look at anything, even just going with a friend who is the one shopping looking. Waste my time…
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