"Made In America" Paige Cade claims US bred is inferior to European

[Amberley]

@bingbingbing

They are private facilities focused on showing and do not have the need to advertise or to sell prospects.

That doesn’t do buyers any good though does it? A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make. And I’m also not sure that breeding imported mares to Chacco Blue or other EU based studs really counts as American breeding which is what I see people doing.

I’m sure there are some US bred 5* SJers but I can’t think of one off the top of my head. I had a US born and bred mare that threw two 1.45m horses by US studs back in the 90s. She only had 3 foals total and as a percentage of offspring I jokingly say she is the most successful US show jumping broodmare I’ve encountered, lol.

I do see lots of top event prospects and some really nice dressage horses at the young horse shows every year in the US. And super all rounder types, with excellent temperaments, often out of homebred stallions- those people know their audience. I don’t see the 1.3m+ types very often. I can go home to Ireland and it’s super easy to find those for reasonable prices too, even though SJ is not the main focus of most programs there are still enough doing it.

[Amberley]

@thereadinghorse

This horse is already over priced. She’s a jumper used for dressage and the 70k they want is already way to much, cause she’s only done M*.

But they have the long wraps over the knee and the dressage music in the video! Seriously though, that is a really high price, I’m surprised that they can command that. I don’t think even in the USA that would sell.

[bingbingbing]

@Amberley

A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make.

It is most certainly not a few people. And they do sell the ones that don’t fit their program or won’t make the upper level.
You said: “US has good dressage breeders and good Western and flat racing breeders. They do not have good jumping breeders.”
And that is absolutely not true.

@Amberley

And I’m also not sure that breeding imported mares to Chacco Blue or other EU based studs really counts as American breeding which is what I see people doing.

I am not sure why you make so many assumptions. My customers and friends often breed to their own stallions with mares they own in this country. Yes, some use frozen from Europe and somewhere along the lines the others were imported. But many are working on second and third generation US bred. But if a person buys an imported mare and choses a European stallion and the foal is born in this country it is indeed US bred.

@Amberley

I do see lots of top event prospects and some really nice dressage horses at the young horse shows every year in the US.

A top event prospect or a really nice dressage prospect does not equal a top level competitor.
The young jumper classes in Wellington have quite a few US breds in every level. At these levels the horses are generally sold by word of mouth. So not advertising is status quo.

[Amberley]

Again, that’s not helpful for people who want to buy a jumping prospect and aren’t in your secret club?

If there were lots and lots of good jumping horses being bred and available for sale in the US? People wouldn’t be importing them. People don’t typically like to make life more difficult or expensive than they need to. It’s extremely difficult to find a nice jumper prospect in the US. And if you do find one they are often prohibitively expensive. Literally anyone can tell you this. Sometimes you get lucky and find one but if you need one on a timeline?

[beowulf]

I wondered if that article would be shared here. I considered starting a topic on it, but deleted it at the last minute because I didn’t want to give that op-piece one ounce of free publicity.

The writer’s main source of income is US buyers purchasing her imports. 'Nuff said on that axe to grind.

[Willesdon]

Numbers registered each year would be a clear indication of who is breeding what and for what. AQH with thousands of foals each spring compared to a WB Studbook with several tens in number? English disciplines are a minority in the American horse world.

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

That doesn’t do buyers any good though does it? A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make.

@Amberley

Again, that’s not helpful for people who want to buy a jumping prospect and aren’t in your secret club?

If so are so unhappy with what is available in the US, then by all means, please take on the personal risk and produce the jumpers you think breeders should be producing in the US. It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves.

I also have no idea why you would consider those who do breed for themselves and occasionally sell not part of the industry. Especially when their operations support multiple aspects of the industry as well as professionals within the industry, often just as much as a breeder who intends on selling every foal.

[omare]

And as others have noted, it seems to take a lot more money to “make” a horse in the USA vs Europe for the upper level. Estimated cost to 6 or 7 years old? Costs for breeding, foaling, starting, maintaining, showing, from 5, 6, 7 years (even infrequently to just get mileage)- Lots of money required. Same quality horse USA vs Europe at 7 years old-how much money has it taken? (And this will also depend here on whether professional owns vs having to pay a professional to develop the horse.)

[thereadinghorse]

Shows in general have absurd high prices in the US. I really thought I had read it false, when I first encountered the entering fees and stuff…

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

@Warmblood1

It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves

Your suggestion is basically to do more hobby breeding by inexperienced people. Which is exactly what potential buyers like me would prefer to see less of, not more.

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo. I have received two very short videos of a horse trotting or running in short bursts from corner to corner in a small paddock while being chased by the camera(wo)man and lots of frankly terrible photos, most of them quite old. Not one professional set of confo shots, no feet shown, not one horse being handled or doing any age appropriate things, not one video showing movement from the front or back or at all three gaits. Only one of the breeders had a verifiable history on the mare. One told me the horse was largely unhandled as she’s in her 70s now and can’t handle them anymore. To go and see these horses would take about 4 hours of driving for 2 of them, 8 hours for the third and a 4 hr flight each way for the fourth. Only two are in the same general area.

If I reach out to someone like Cooley Farm or really any reputable youngstock agent in the EU or UK, I will get a call asking what I want, then an email with some nice videos showing movement, handling, jump chute, ground training, feet, conformation and a photo of the passport already paid for. Sometimes I even get some vetting info. If I show up in person they’ll have arranged with the sellers to haul them in for the day to look at. I’m going to be in Ireland in June so…

Improving the chance a buyer of jumping horses will stay in NA is not achieved by encouraging more people to join Group 1. I would absolutely have no idea how to become a commercial breeder, if I WERE to pursue it I’d want to go work at a big farm for a few years to learn the trade which means dressage facility or go to Europe.

If that is what you gathered from my posts, then my point went flying over your head at mock Jesus speed. That is NOT what I said at all.

Pretty pointless to have a conversation with someone who a). Won’t read what I actually wrote and b). is uninformed and has such a strong/negative opinions of US breeders.

[Amberley]

I’m actively trying to buy a horse from US breeders!!! I’ve been trying for almost 6 months and that’s after attending 4 or 5 inspections and YHS / YEH events last year to narrow it down. I’m trying to support the industry.

Nothing I’m saying hasn’t been said a hundred times before online about trying to buy in the USA.

If you aren’t interested in listening to feedback from customers I don’t know what to tell you.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Amberley

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo.

Most breeders I know don’t keep their young stock that long - or not on purpose, at least. That’s probably a big part of the difficulty you’re having. The oldest one I’ve sold yet was about 10 days old at the time the check cleared. My coming two year old was a planned keeper from the start and isn’t available at any price - not good business, maybe, but I adore her.

Good luck in your search, though! I’m sure it will all be worth it once you’ve found “the one”.

[clanter]

If you aren’t interested in listening to feedback from customers

Even the breeders who do listen to their Clients have great greater demand for their foals than availability. These products are not mass produced by some machine

The successful breeders do have greater demand than stock

If you want a purposed bred foal that requires commitment that many of today’s consumers are not willing to wait for as they expect their demands to be met without reservation not in a timely manor but NOW,

maybe read thread in H/J forum about worth/price of a horse as those that have a desirable foal/horse have more buyers than stock

Why Is Your Horse Worth the Price that It Is?

Hi all, I am an amateur rider looking to purchase my next horse, which will be my first horse bought as an adult with my own adult money. Go me! Because this is a big investment for me, I want to research thoroughly so that I know what to expect. In today’s crazy market, what can I expect from a horse priced at 25k? What can I expect from a 50k horse? What about a 75k horse? I would love to hear specifics. What qualities does a horse need to have in order to sport a certain price tag? If you ar…

[dags]

@Amberley - feel free not to answer this, but I’m curious what price ranges you are shopping for this prospect? If these are borderline hobby breeders then I’m not surprised the customer service is a bit wanting. I know plenty of top jumpers being bred in the US, but if they’re still holding on to a “top” 3 year old prospect, it’s going to be a very expensive 3 year old. It’s less than a year from being under saddle, at which point they can basically double the price. Having paid for it to live and learn for 36 months they’re not likely to abandon ship 12-18 months before the real dollars start rolling in.

[ASBJumper]

Have you tried doing a search on warmblood-sales.com? Cuz… i just did, with the parameters of “prospect” in the Jumping category and foaled in 2021 or 2022 and got pages and pages and pages of nice young horses… (granted a bunch are in Canada, but still… lol)

[dags]

Reporting back after querying said breeders and the consensus is: They’re gone. They were sold 3 years ago as foals or in utero, usually privately with no marketing, or are in partnership with a pro. A couple that hung around till age 3 sold around the 50k mark (few years ago), which is the number I had in my head in my head for this type. Seller of one of those has a friend who recently bought a very similar black-type 3 yo in Europe, un-started, for 75k before import.

Europe isn’t the deal it used to be, but you can certainly see a lot more horses for a lot less effort, which is a value in and of itself.

So you are correct in that it is hard to find high quality 3 year olds in North America (I searched 2021 jumper prospect and could only make it through the first page at the link above…). The supply (because Breeding in America) is extremely limited and— the truth of the matter is, amateur riders with proper facilities & 35K+ to spend on an unbroke horse are few & far between. Successful breeders have learned there is no buyer at the end of the 3 year old rainbow. They need to sell well before they sink $20k+ and tons of risk into getting baby horse raised & backed.

It’s a literal hole in the American market— buy very young or buy the 4/5 year old that’s got expensive starter horse show miles built into the price.

They also note that the yards in Europe are (generally) not breeders, but young horse mills where they buy tons of babies to bring along and sell off for various amounts, occasionally getting lucky. So the non-VDL type breeders are also selling early, but they’re selling into buyer-friendly programs where Americans show up by the van-load to shop.

But the leap that the author took, to equate that to mean we are not breeding top talent, is a complete conflation. We are breeding top quality talent, we just have terrible promotional skills.

[CuriosoJorge]

If you expect to pay 25k for a 3yo AO jumper prospect, your budget is about half what it should be. I also agree that most of them were sold as foals.

[thereadinghorse]

Very intresting: A 3yo jumper prospect would be between 15 and 30k here (Germany). Nobody would pay 50k.

[CuriosoJorge]

Dear lord, we can all use ehorse. The ones in the sub10k category undoubtedly have a significant vet finding. Please remember to add 15k in import fees +- castration on to the prices you’re quoting, which then puts you very much back to the 50k USD ballpark that I quoted. Hmmmm.

[M1ssmouse]

Prize money is terrible in Spain though