"Made In America" Paige Cade claims US bred is inferior to European

[bingbingbing]

@Amberley

The thing is- she’s absolutely right in terms of jumping horses. US has good dressage breeders and good Western and flat racing breeders. They do not have good jumping breeders. There are a few people in Canada breeding nice horses and Kyle King is an example of a rider who’s consistently done well with Canadian bred horses. But I can’t think of any in the USA consistently breeding GP level horses at even the national level - a few here and there yes but not consistently. You can buy any number of top dressage horses or prospects bred here. You really can’t find a top jumper prospect.

I personally know many people in the US breeding and showing top show jumpers. They are private facilities focused on showing and do not have the need to advertise or to sell prospects. Many are not on a large scale, with a foal or two every year. But they are using very good mares and stallions.

Do I think we are breeding on the same scale as Europe, obviously not. But there are some very good jumper breeders in the country. Spy Coast has a very impressive breeding program. They are producing very nice horses. I know top riders/programs are breeding their mares to their stallions.
Also, as it was said in the Karen thread; it is not easy to breed an Olympic caliber jumper. I had horses for an Olympian to breed and one of his rider’s naively commented on how bad the program was since most didn’t make it to Grand Prix. It is not that easy! There are so many variables that could take a possible Olympic or top horse out of contention, as well as those horses just not having what it takes to get to that level or being in a home that has zero aspirations/skill for that level.

[thereadinghorse]

I have thought for several minutes, if I should reply or not. I decided to do so. But please be aware, that I don’t state MY opinion here, but only the general opinion from horse people around europe. This is not what I think, because I don’t dare to form an opinion about this topic, because I know next to nothing about the US breeding programmes. So please don’t read this as an offense. It’s not meant to be one. I just want to add another perspective.

We do have lots of registries for warmbloods. And all those registries have studs. Like Celle where the Niedersächsische Landgestüt is, or Gestüt Marbach and so on. And it’s been a common knowledge, that studs, that don’t meet the expectations often times get sold into the US. I could name a few examples of which I know if, which where said to be “sold to the US” because “the offspring didn’t convince”. So there seems to be a lot of people, that think, that the US buys “lesser quality WBs for more money” than you would get at the european market.

Again, this isn’t my personal opinion, as I don’t have one. Just things I heard through my years around horse breeders, trainers and sellers.

[bingbingbing]

I think that is all common knowledge. We have a bigger market for lower level horses. So they are suitable for the needs of the riders in the US.

When the US breeds a horse and sends it to Europe and it wins the six year old finals, no one hears about it. The US is breeding quality jumpers, just not at the rate Europe is. Fact. And while we may be often working with some of the rejects, we are very much competitive on the world stage in show jumping. So, they can’t be selling the US all of their junk. Unless we have the better riders to make the junk shine.

[thereadinghorse]

Oh, no. It’s certainly not the junk, that is sold to the US! The junk is way to “worthless” to even consider selling it to the US. But the US just pays way more money for the same horse than any european would, so of course people sell them over the pond, because they get double the amount.

For example, if you’d be looking for a nice dressage prospect, let’s say a nice 4yo hannoverian mare suitable for M and S-level (S is the highest before international) you are about to pay 25 to 50k. That’s the price range where you find such horses.

If you’re looking for buying a nice companion for some lower level competitions, you pay around 10 to 20k.

Quick search on our most used selling page:

Westfale Stute 8 Jahre 168 cm Brauner in Haftenkamp

This horse is already over priced. She’s a jumper used for dressage and the 70k they want is already way to much, cause she’s only done M*.

This boy is a typical WB with a typical price of 11,5k: https://www.ehorses.de/hannoveraner-wallach-4jahre-170-cm-brauner-dressurpferd-freizeitpferd-rickling/3912289.html

My best friend bought here then 3yo trakehner mare (sister to Isselhook’s First Sight) for 8k. Another good friend bought her then 6yo Jazz x Laurentio mare for aorund 12k. That’s like the average price for normal WBs.

Just to give some insights in pricing over here. In my barn with about 120 horses (and roughly 85% of them WBs) there’s few that have been more than 15k.

[bingbingbing]

@Amberley

A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make.

It is most certainly not a few people. And they do sell the ones that don’t fit their program or won’t make the upper level.
You said: “US has good dressage breeders and good Western and flat racing breeders. They do not have good jumping breeders.”
And that is absolutely not true.

@Amberley

And I’m also not sure that breeding imported mares to Chacco Blue or other EU based studs really counts as American breeding which is what I see people doing.

I am not sure why you make so many assumptions. My customers and friends often breed to their own stallions with mares they own in this country. Yes, some use frozen from Europe and somewhere along the lines the others were imported. But many are working on second and third generation US bred. But if a person buys an imported mare and choses a European stallion and the foal is born in this country it is indeed US bred.

@Amberley

I do see lots of top event prospects and some really nice dressage horses at the young horse shows every year in the US.

A top event prospect or a really nice dressage prospect does not equal a top level competitor.
The young jumper classes in Wellington have quite a few US breds in every level. At these levels the horses are generally sold by word of mouth. So not advertising is status quo.

[beowulf]

I wondered if that article would be shared here. I considered starting a topic on it, but deleted it at the last minute because I didn’t want to give that op-piece one ounce of free publicity.

The writer’s main source of income is US buyers purchasing her imports. 'Nuff said on that axe to grind.

[Willesdon]

Numbers registered each year would be a clear indication of who is breeding what and for what. AQH with thousands of foals each spring compared to a WB Studbook with several tens in number? English disciplines are a minority in the American horse world.

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

That doesn’t do buyers any good though does it? A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make.

@Amberley

Again, that’s not helpful for people who want to buy a jumping prospect and aren’t in your secret club?

If so are so unhappy with what is available in the US, then by all means, please take on the personal risk and produce the jumpers you think breeders should be producing in the US. It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves.

I also have no idea why you would consider those who do breed for themselves and occasionally sell not part of the industry. Especially when their operations support multiple aspects of the industry as well as professionals within the industry, often just as much as a breeder who intends on selling every foal.

[omare]

And as others have noted, it seems to take a lot more money to “make” a horse in the USA vs Europe for the upper level. Estimated cost to 6 or 7 years old? Costs for breeding, foaling, starting, maintaining, showing, from 5, 6, 7 years (even infrequently to just get mileage)- Lots of money required. Same quality horse USA vs Europe at 7 years old-how much money has it taken? (And this will also depend here on whether professional owns vs having to pay a professional to develop the horse.)

[thereadinghorse]

Shows in general have absurd high prices in the US. I really thought I had read it false, when I first encountered the entering fees and stuff…

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

@Warmblood1

It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves

Your suggestion is basically to do more hobby breeding by inexperienced people. Which is exactly what potential buyers like me would prefer to see less of, not more.

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo. I have received two very short videos of a horse trotting or running in short bursts from corner to corner in a small paddock while being chased by the camera(wo)man and lots of frankly terrible photos, most of them quite old. Not one professional set of confo shots, no feet shown, not one horse being handled or doing any age appropriate things, not one video showing movement from the front or back or at all three gaits. Only one of the breeders had a verifiable history on the mare. One told me the horse was largely unhandled as she’s in her 70s now and can’t handle them anymore. To go and see these horses would take about 4 hours of driving for 2 of them, 8 hours for the third and a 4 hr flight each way for the fourth. Only two are in the same general area.

If I reach out to someone like Cooley Farm or really any reputable youngstock agent in the EU or UK, I will get a call asking what I want, then an email with some nice videos showing movement, handling, jump chute, ground training, feet, conformation and a photo of the passport already paid for. Sometimes I even get some vetting info. If I show up in person they’ll have arranged with the sellers to haul them in for the day to look at. I’m going to be in Ireland in June so…

Improving the chance a buyer of jumping horses will stay in NA is not achieved by encouraging more people to join Group 1. I would absolutely have no idea how to become a commercial breeder, if I WERE to pursue it I’d want to go work at a big farm for a few years to learn the trade which means dressage facility or go to Europe.

If that is what you gathered from my posts, then my point went flying over your head at mock Jesus speed. That is NOT what I said at all.

Pretty pointless to have a conversation with someone who a). Won’t read what I actually wrote and b). is uninformed and has such a strong/negative opinions of US breeders.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Amberley

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo.

Most breeders I know don’t keep their young stock that long - or not on purpose, at least. That’s probably a big part of the difficulty you’re having. The oldest one I’ve sold yet was about 10 days old at the time the check cleared. My coming two year old was a planned keeper from the start and isn’t available at any price - not good business, maybe, but I adore her.

Good luck in your search, though! I’m sure it will all be worth it once you’ve found “the one”.

[clanter]

If you aren’t interested in listening to feedback from customers

Even the breeders who do listen to their Clients have great greater demand for their foals than availability. These products are not mass produced by some machine

The successful breeders do have greater demand than stock

If you want a purposed bred foal that requires commitment that many of today’s consumers are not willing to wait for as they expect their demands to be met without reservation not in a timely manor but NOW,

maybe read thread in H/J forum about worth/price of a horse as those that have a desirable foal/horse have more buyers than stock

Why Is Your Horse Worth the Price that It Is?

Hi all, I am an amateur rider looking to purchase my next horse, which will be my first horse bought as an adult with my own adult money. Go me! Because this is a big investment for me, I want to research thoroughly so that I know what to expect. In today’s crazy market, what can I expect from a horse priced at 25k? What can I expect from a 50k horse? What about a 75k horse? I would love to hear specifics. What qualities does a horse need to have in order to sport a certain price tag? If you ar…

[dags]

@Amberley - feel free not to answer this, but I’m curious what price ranges you are shopping for this prospect? If these are borderline hobby breeders then I’m not surprised the customer service is a bit wanting. I know plenty of top jumpers being bred in the US, but if they’re still holding on to a “top” 3 year old prospect, it’s going to be a very expensive 3 year old. It’s less than a year from being under saddle, at which point they can basically double the price. Having paid for it to live and learn for 36 months they’re not likely to abandon ship 12-18 months before the real dollars start rolling in.

[ASBJumper]

Have you tried doing a search on warmblood-sales.com? Cuz… i just did, with the parameters of “prospect” in the Jumping category and foaled in 2021 or 2022 and got pages and pages and pages of nice young horses… (granted a bunch are in Canada, but still… lol)

[dags]

Reporting back after querying said breeders and the consensus is: They’re gone. They were sold 3 years ago as foals or in utero, usually privately with no marketing, or are in partnership with a pro. A couple that hung around till age 3 sold around the 50k mark (few years ago), which is the number I had in my head in my head for this type. Seller of one of those has a friend who recently bought a very similar black-type 3 yo in Europe, un-started, for 75k before import.

Europe isn’t the deal it used to be, but you can certainly see a lot more horses for a lot less effort, which is a value in and of itself.

So you are correct in that it is hard to find high quality 3 year olds in North America (I searched 2021 jumper prospect and could only make it through the first page at the link above…). The supply (because Breeding in America) is extremely limited and— the truth of the matter is, amateur riders with proper facilities & 35K+ to spend on an unbroke horse are few & far between. Successful breeders have learned there is no buyer at the end of the 3 year old rainbow. They need to sell well before they sink $20k+ and tons of risk into getting baby horse raised & backed.

It’s a literal hole in the American market— buy very young or buy the 4/5 year old that’s got expensive starter horse show miles built into the price.

They also note that the yards in Europe are (generally) not breeders, but young horse mills where they buy tons of babies to bring along and sell off for various amounts, occasionally getting lucky. So the non-VDL type breeders are also selling early, but they’re selling into buyer-friendly programs where Americans show up by the van-load to shop.

But the leap that the author took, to equate that to mean we are not breeding top talent, is a complete conflation. We are breeding top quality talent, we just have terrible promotional skills.

[CuriosoJorge]

If you expect to pay 25k for a 3yo AO jumper prospect, your budget is about half what it should be. I also agree that most of them were sold as foals.

[thereadinghorse]

Very intresting: A 3yo jumper prospect would be between 15 and 30k here (Germany). Nobody would pay 50k.

[CuriosoJorge]

Dear lord, we can all use ehorse. The ones in the sub10k category undoubtedly have a significant vet finding. Please remember to add 15k in import fees +- castration on to the prices you’re quoting, which then puts you very much back to the 50k USD ballpark that I quoted. Hmmmm.

[M1ssmouse]

Prize money is terrible in Spain though