"Made In America" Paige Cade claims US bred is inferior to European

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

That doesn’t do buyers any good though does it? A few people breeding for themselves does not an industry make.

@Amberley

Again, that’s not helpful for people who want to buy a jumping prospect and aren’t in your secret club?

If so are so unhappy with what is available in the US, then by all means, please take on the personal risk and produce the jumpers you think breeders should be producing in the US. It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves.

I also have no idea why you would consider those who do breed for themselves and occasionally sell not part of the industry. Especially when their operations support multiple aspects of the industry as well as professionals within the industry, often just as much as a breeder who intends on selling every foal.

[Amberley]

@Warmblood1

It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves

Your suggestion is basically to do more hobby breeding by inexperienced people. Which is exactly what potential buyers like me would prefer to see less of, not more.

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo. I have received two very short videos of a horse trotting or running in short bursts from corner to corner in a small paddock while being chased by the camera(wo)man and lots of frankly terrible photos, most of them quite old. Not one professional set of confo shots, no feet shown, not one horse being handled or doing any age appropriate things, not one video showing movement from the front or back or at all three gaits. Only one of the breeders had a verifiable history on the mare. One told me the horse was largely unhandled as she’s in her 70s now and can’t handle them anymore. To go and see these horses would take about 4 hours of driving for 2 of them, 8 hours for the third and a 4 hr flight each way for the fourth. Only two are in the same general area.

If I reach out to someone like Cooley Farm or really any reputable youngstock agent in the EU or UK, I will get a call asking what I want, then an email with some nice videos showing movement, handling, jump chute, ground training, feet, conformation and a photo of the passport already paid for. Sometimes I even get some vetting info. If I show up in person they’ll have arranged with the sellers to haul them in for the day to look at. I’m going to be in Ireland in June so…

Improving the chance a buyer of jumping horses will stay in NA is not achieved by encouraging more people to join Group 1. I would absolutely have no idea how to become a commercial breeder, if I WERE to pursue it I’d want to go work at a big farm for a few years to learn the trade which means dressage facility or go to Europe.

[omare]

And as others have noted, it seems to take a lot more money to “make” a horse in the USA vs Europe for the upper level. Estimated cost to 6 or 7 years old? Costs for breeding, foaling, starting, maintaining, showing, from 5, 6, 7 years (even infrequently to just get mileage)- Lots of money required. Same quality horse USA vs Europe at 7 years old-how much money has it taken? (And this will also depend here on whether professional owns vs having to pay a professional to develop the horse.)

[Amberley]

The cost of keeping them is becoming more equal these days in western and northern Europe although overall COL is still lower. It’s a lot cheaper to start and ride your own though, which most do. And ofc showing is cheaper. The Sunshine Circuit in Spain is honestly pretty amazing, I think there were 650 horses entered in the FEI age classes the year I was there. There is free Live TV of the rings, showing 8 CSI classes today alone. Plus the food was amazing. I have only been for one day but I plan to return!

These are the prices for the Sunshine Tour (from 2020- that’s what I have).. You pay for a stall, a room, hay, feed, grass paddocks etc all to the show. Rooms are as low as 65E /night. Classes are individual. Compare to the price to go to WEC or WEF. And this is only jumpers- 1m and up.

[thereadinghorse]

Shows in general have absurd high prices in the US. I really thought I had read it false, when I first encountered the entering fees and stuff…

[Warmblood1]

@Amberley

@Warmblood1

It is aggravating to hear people complain about what is bred in the US when they do not breed anything themselves

Your suggestion is basically to do more hobby breeding by inexperienced people. Which is exactly what potential buyers like me would prefer to see less of, not more.

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo. I have received two very short videos of a horse trotting or running in short bursts from corner to corner in a small paddock while being chased by the camera(wo)man and lots of frankly terrible photos, most of them quite old. Not one professional set of confo shots, no feet shown, not one horse being handled or doing any age appropriate things, not one video showing movement from the front or back or at all three gaits. Only one of the breeders had a verifiable history on the mare. One told me the horse was largely unhandled as she’s in her 70s now and can’t handle them anymore. To go and see these horses would take about 4 hours of driving for 2 of them, 8 hours for the third and a 4 hr flight each way for the fourth. Only two are in the same general area.

If I reach out to someone like Cooley Farm or really any reputable youngstock agent in the EU or UK, I will get a call asking what I want, then an email with some nice videos showing movement, handling, jump chute, ground training, feet, conformation and a photo of the passport already paid for. Sometimes I even get some vetting info. If I show up in person they’ll have arranged with the sellers to haul them in for the day to look at. I’m going to be in Ireland in June so…

Improving the chance a buyer of jumping horses will stay in NA is not achieved by encouraging more people to join Group 1. I would absolutely have no idea how to become a commercial breeder, if I WERE to pursue it I’d want to go work at a big farm for a few years to learn the trade which means dressage facility or go to Europe.

If that is what you gathered from my posts, then my point went flying over your head at mock Jesus speed. That is NOT what I said at all.

Pretty pointless to have a conversation with someone who a). Won’t read what I actually wrote and b). is uninformed and has such a strong/negative opinions of US breeders.

[Amberley]

I’m actively trying to buy a horse from US breeders!!! I’ve been trying for almost 6 months and that’s after attending 4 or 5 inspections and YHS / YEH events last year to narrow it down. I’m trying to support the industry.

Nothing I’m saying hasn’t been said a hundred times before online about trying to buy in the USA.

If you aren’t interested in listening to feedback from customers I don’t know what to tell you.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Amberley

I have reached out to four breeders this week, I’m looking for a 3yo.

Most breeders I know don’t keep their young stock that long - or not on purpose, at least. That’s probably a big part of the difficulty you’re having. The oldest one I’ve sold yet was about 10 days old at the time the check cleared. My coming two year old was a planned keeper from the start and isn’t available at any price - not good business, maybe, but I adore her.

Good luck in your search, though! I’m sure it will all be worth it once you’ve found “the one”.

[clanter]

If you aren’t interested in listening to feedback from customers

Even the breeders who do listen to their Clients have great greater demand for their foals than availability. These products are not mass produced by some machine

The successful breeders do have greater demand than stock

If you want a purposed bred foal that requires commitment that many of today’s consumers are not willing to wait for as they expect their demands to be met without reservation not in a timely manor but NOW,

maybe read thread in H/J forum about worth/price of a horse as those that have a desirable foal/horse have more buyers than stock

Why Is Your Horse Worth the Price that It Is?

Hi all, I am an amateur rider looking to purchase my next horse, which will be my first horse bought as an adult with my own adult money. Go me! Because this is a big investment for me, I want to research thoroughly so that I know what to expect. In today’s crazy market, what can I expect from a horse priced at 25k? What can I expect from a 50k horse? What about a 75k horse? I would love to hear specifics. What qualities does a horse need to have in order to sport a certain price tag? If you ar…

[dags]

@Amberley - feel free not to answer this, but I’m curious what price ranges you are shopping for this prospect? If these are borderline hobby breeders then I’m not surprised the customer service is a bit wanting. I know plenty of top jumpers being bred in the US, but if they’re still holding on to a “top” 3 year old prospect, it’s going to be a very expensive 3 year old. It’s less than a year from being under saddle, at which point they can basically double the price. Having paid for it to live and learn for 36 months they’re not likely to abandon ship 12-18 months before the real dollars start rolling in.

[Amberley]

I’m looking at expensive 3 yos I’m also looking at 2yos. I probably wouldn’t go younger as I don’t have a suitable turnout situation. This is going to be my last nice AO jumper and we shall grow old together gracefully so money is not the issue. Getting information is the issue. One breeder has been promising to send me jump chute video since last September and has not, as an example. That’s a $25k 2 year old fyi. Or was. I guess it’s 3 now.

If anyone wants to post some links to all these nice prospects for sale you keep mentioning? Please do. Because I’ll be in Europe in 8 weeks and my budget will let me buy a going horse there but importing is always a risk.

[ASBJumper]

Have you tried doing a search on warmblood-sales.com? Cuz… i just did, with the parameters of “prospect” in the Jumping category and foaled in 2021 or 2022 and got pages and pages and pages of nice young horses… (granted a bunch are in Canada, but still… lol)

[dags]

Reporting back after querying said breeders and the consensus is: They’re gone. They were sold 3 years ago as foals or in utero, usually privately with no marketing, or are in partnership with a pro. A couple that hung around till age 3 sold around the 50k mark (few years ago), which is the number I had in my head in my head for this type. Seller of one of those has a friend who recently bought a very similar black-type 3 yo in Europe, un-started, for 75k before import.

Europe isn’t the deal it used to be, but you can certainly see a lot more horses for a lot less effort, which is a value in and of itself.

So you are correct in that it is hard to find high quality 3 year olds in North America (I searched 2021 jumper prospect and could only make it through the first page at the link above…). The supply (because Breeding in America) is extremely limited and— the truth of the matter is, amateur riders with proper facilities & 35K+ to spend on an unbroke horse are few & far between. Successful breeders have learned there is no buyer at the end of the 3 year old rainbow. They need to sell well before they sink $20k+ and tons of risk into getting baby horse raised & backed.

It’s a literal hole in the American market— buy very young or buy the 4/5 year old that’s got expensive starter horse show miles built into the price.

They also note that the yards in Europe are (generally) not breeders, but young horse mills where they buy tons of babies to bring along and sell off for various amounts, occasionally getting lucky. So the non-VDL type breeders are also selling early, but they’re selling into buyer-friendly programs where Americans show up by the van-load to shop.

But the leap that the author took, to equate that to mean we are not breeding top talent, is a complete conflation. We are breeding top quality talent, we just have terrible promotional skills.

[Amberley]

Of course I’ve looked there. And there are lots of horses for sale but communicating with the sellers is like trying to get a 3 yo child to tell you where they hid mommy’s car keys.

Dags while there are large sellers in Europe it is also vv easy to find breeders and buy direct. Most of them are happy to talk your ear off about the horses siblings, dam line etc and these days they all have recent pics, videos, passport info etc.

[CuriosoJorge]

If you expect to pay 25k for a 3yo AO jumper prospect, your budget is about half what it should be. I also agree that most of them were sold as foals.

[thereadinghorse]

Very intresting: A 3yo jumper prospect would be between 15 and 30k here (Germany). Nobody would pay 50k.

[CuriosoJorge]

Dear lord, we can all use ehorse. The ones in the sub10k category undoubtedly have a significant vet finding. Please remember to add 15k in import fees +- castration on to the prices you’re quoting, which then puts you very much back to the 50k USD ballpark that I quoted. Hmmmm.

[M1ssmouse]

Prize money is terrible in Spain though

[Amberley]

Probably because you have more than 6 of them for sale in the entire country.