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Man fatally mauled, dog killed, by pit bulls on dog walk

The Menagerie
#741

NEEDS A NAP good grief that “rescue” needs shutting down! Holy crap I cannot believe the stupidity of those people and that the state has allowed for them to continue. That dog “Blue” had a bite history on humans and an aggressive history, he should never have been adopted out, he should have been euthanized and not released to a rescue. That is on the shelter he came from and on the state as well as the so called rescue.

I do not agree with rescues who want to rehabbed and save every single animal out there, regardless of their medical or mental state. I am not such a bleeding heart that I feel every dog needs to be saved.

5 Likes
#742

No kidding,not to mention the embezzlement charges and then getting approved for a charity. I think this struck me particularly because of the needless death of a lady who had made it to 90 years of age. My own mother died when she was exactly my age (65) and I miss her every single day. To think her daughter endangered her for what? A year old pit bull with issuesMakes me sick.

2 Likes
#743

I agree NEEDS A NAP. That is on the adopter to not show due diligence in her adoption of the dog. Potential adopters should always research the rescue they are looking to adopt from, there are many good rescues out there, no need to be feeding these low life criminals that masquerade as a respectable rescue (501c at that!). I am sure there was information out there to lead to at least these criminal charges the head of the rescue faced.

Being involved in rescue yes we see the unscrupulous out there. More than one rescuers that I know of have faced embezzlement charges, stealing money from the 501c they are connected to. That is just low life. This though is even beyond embezzlement but even worse IMO by adopting out dogs that should not because of behavioral issues. I don’t mind when good trainers take on the difficult cases, often being paid for their work by the owners, but moving the dogs into a rescue intending to adopt these dogs into unaware homes is criminal.

#744

I don’t think your being a dick at all.

I’m not ignoring your question or avoiding answering it, I haven’t thought of or devised any ideas of what should be included in dangerous dog BSL’s but if you want to give me some time to seriously think about it, I will.

#745

CT so you would be ok with killing all the bullies? I just do not see a complete ban of bully breeds changing dog bite fatalities.

This is why it’s not worth engaging in discussion with you, you twist words constantly. We’ve been over what our Ontario pit bull ban is many times and I(and others) have posted the link to the government site…yet you continue to deflect and dance in circles.

1 Like
#746

Large numbers? Really? Where do you get your statistics? Last I looked there are less than 40 dog bite fatalities per year. That is less than one per state. So no that is no where near “large numbers”. Many many more are killed by guns than by dogs.

Were not talking about gun deaths…we’re talking about pit bull/types deaths, stop deflecting.

Do you honestly believe 40 deaths per year is not a large number? Do you believe that under 40 or under deaths doesn’t justify a serious overhaul in pit bull/types laws? How many deaths would it take for you to agree that pit bulls need a BSL?

1 Like
#747

CT first of all a pit bull ban would kill many dogs with no option for adopting them out. You have said previously as well you would like to see the breed type eradicated.

Secondly not all of the less than 40 deaths are from a block headed dogs, maybe half. So why go after just the bullies when maybe 20 deaths a year can be attributed to blockheaded dogs? Out of the 100’s of thousand of bullies and their mixes that are happy members of society. What about the other dog breeds on the dog bite fatality list? The Rotties the GSDs the mix breeds out there that pack up? How do you target possible aggressive dogs based on breed and/or looks? What does that BSL do?

Third, again the look of the dog (which is what a pit bull ban targets) has nothing to do with whether that dog will be aggressive to humans or not. Only prior behavior is a reliable indicator of future behavior. Not coat color, not breed, not looks, not the size of their head.

The death of the 90 yr old is a good example of prior behavior of the dog that was ignored and hidden, “Blue” had a bite history yet the shelter released him to that “rescue” who did not disclose the information or what previous adopters who had returned the dog had observed. People failed miserably in that instance which is what happens in most cases of dog bite fatalities, it is the people who are at fault. Whether they leave their dog with a small child/infant, they fail to properly contain the dogs or the other numerous issues that lead to dog bite fatalities.

Because a pit bull ban does not work as shown by many studies to date, I would never agree with a pit bull ban. They are focusing on the look of a dog and not the behavior, stupid and does NOTHING to reduce dog bite fatalities.

2 Likes
#748

Ok good lol. You never know how tone is interpreted here.

I pose the question because I could change my mind about BSL. Dogs of a certain type biting and killing people does not help my cause. I own 2 dogs of a breed that, often, people tell me they hate without having even met one. I am fully aware of how dangerous they could be. My rescue has protection training (prior to coming to me) from a person I know to be a horrible trainer. I was told by a decoy that his bite is incredible (most Dobes have higher bite force then any other domestic dog anyways but I guess hes used to Rotties, Mals and GSDs). My trainer thinks he could be an IPO 3 candidate. This dog is so damn sweet despite his shitty life so far but that doesn’t mean I take any chances with him. He may have a button I have not found yet. He’s big, strong, fast and crazy athletic. In the wrong hands he could be extremely dangerous. We are really taking our time with him, just bonding and obedience right now. I make no attempts to make everyone think these dogs are big teddy bears despite the fact that they usually are. I don’t dress them up lol. I don’t force them on anyone in fact quite the opposite. I do not encourage most people to get one. Most Doberman rescues that I know are very careful where they place their dogs. Certainly with the sharper, more correct working types. Good breeders will not sell a dog to a certain type of person. The breeder that bred my rescue will sell a dog to anyone that will give him the $6000 he demands for them. If BSL that included this breed hurt his business how could I not support it? The true enthusiasts will not stop breeding, showing and owning because of BSL. If it becomes a PITA to purchase/own a dog on that list then maybe the worst types of owners and breeders will find something else to do.

I am trying to look at this from a different perspective.

Also khall I am the one that wouldn’t be bothered if Pitbulls became extinct. I am not saying kill them all today. I would support sterilization though. I almost think it would be more humane in the long run. I feel bad for fighting dogs. I feel bad for dogs owned by idiots that are ticking time bombs. I agree, it isn’t the dogs fault. But they pay in the end and often there are people hurt or killed in that process. The data appears to be all over the place but the one thing that I think is indisputable is that Pitbulls are always at the top of the list.

3 Likes
#749

Slight update on the Virginia Beach “rescue” that adopted out Blue, the dog that killed the 90 year old woman: they have asked their landlord (who requested anonymity as has almost everyone in this case) to terminate their lease. Phones are disconnected. Picture of the property this morning in the local paper. This will come across as snobbish, but I would run like hell from this building if I were going to adopt a pet, or take my own pet for training.

1 Like
#750

Sisu, CT et al who are for BSLs targeting the bullies what would a BSL that you would support look like then? Because not all BSLs are alike, some are fairly benign (one in GA does not allow the bullies at dog parks) to out right bans that allow law enforcement or AC to come in and confiscate your dog and have them euthanized.

This article also goes into why targeting by the way a dog looks is unfair, you cannot just look at a dog and determine their genetics 100%, so are you going to run DNA on all these block headed looking dogs to determine if they really are of a pit bull type? Since last I looked a boxer was not included in that grouping. https://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/dogs-saved-by-dna-testing/

sisu if you had read some of my other posts I also support spay neuter laws and I support free spay neuter for the bullies, in fact I do so with donating to groups that target the bullies for free altering specifically to help reduce their numbers. Too many are being euthanized (along with many other breeds or mixes). I also have paid for my fosters to be spayed or neutered many times, especially the bullies that I have fostered, as well as paying or soliciting funds for HW treatment.

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#751

I have to disagree with you there. If that Blue dog had been put down, an old woman would probably have avoided a horrible death. So no, I wouldn’t say too many are being euthanized.

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#752

red mares, if you had read my previous posts then you would realize that I agree that the dog “Blue” should have been euthanized. There are MANY perfectly lovely dogs, yes even the block headed dogs, that are euthanized each year due to the over population of unwanted pets. Why spay/neuter laws should be on the books and enforced across the board, not breed specific.

Right now I have a litter of puppies that were pulled the day they were scheduled to be euthanized. They were 5 approximately 9 week old black lab mixes that were on the list due to overcrowding and because they had ringworm. They came to me in pretty good shape with no lesions that needed treating. The only issue we are continuing to have is trying to clear up a coccidia infection. We did have an add on (6th puppy) not of the litter that the shelter was not forthcoming to our rescue director and suckered her into taking. She ended up breaking with parvo the Friday after she came. Thankfully she survived and I was quick enough to separate her from the others and they had one vaccine on board no one else got sick and she is already adopted. I also have a lab boxer mix that was on the list from a different shelter. He could not be any better of a dog, maybe 1 yr old and just the best dog. Quiet in the house, not destructive, great to walk on a leash, good around the barn, yet he too was going to be euthanized because some twit could not get their boxer female altered and the neighbor lab also not altered came a calling. I also have fostered a pit/mastiff mix that was pulled the day he was to be euthanized. Scared out of his wits, just the softest of dogs. Once he came out of his shell here, he was just lovely. One of the few fosters that had free run of the farm because he was so trustworthy. He went to a home with 3 cats.

The list could go on. These dogs are lovely dogs, with little to no issues (even my bait dog bully) and very stable temperaments. Fun to work with, some with better focus than others. I actually love working with the bullies because they want to work for you so badly.

Again I have no issues with euthanizing any dog that shows unprovoked human aggression, have done so with a bully I rescue that showed aggression to men and children. I have a problem with rescues that want to try to save any and all regardless of medical or mental issues. I think it is criminal when a rescue like the one Blue came from are not forthcoming with potential problems and previous actions of the dog.

1 Like
#753

100% agree. If a dog has a pattern of aggression, or even just one instance of - for lack of a better term - intense aggression (ie: lunging out at and attempting to attack a human) then they need to be let go. There is no guarantee that a dog can be trained out of being aggressive and once there is a pattern, sure, you can mask it but fight for flight they’ll likely go back to fight and that is when bad situations happen. This is for ANY dog breed. I don’t care if you are a pit, a rottweiler, a poodle, a chihuahua, whatever.

One of my dogs is an American Bulldog/Boxer. Neither breed is listed into my city’s BSL, but if someone wanted to really fight me on having him he could possibly fall in the “any dog which has the appearance and characteristics of being predominantly mixed with the above referenced breeds” section. Sadly, some of our AC can’t distinguish the head from the tail so I don’t trust them as a whole to be able to determine breeds. There have been a few older lawsuits against AC falsely saying dogs were pits and threatening to euthanize (for no other reason except they were “pits”) - which AC lost. Anyways… my dog has passed multiple good citizens tests (through different local training agencies) and we participate in local agility. He has been to horse shows with me and just lays at my feet or plays ball with kids. But, because he could resemble a pit too closely to a) an untrained eye or b) someone with bias and a mission to cull… he should be culled? Just because of what he looks like? I get that some people don’t like certain breeds — I personally don’t care for GSD because I got attacked by one as a kid and it did some actual damage — but that doesn’t mean I think they all need to be offed.

In my city we have a HUGE problem with strays. There was a push recently to stop going out and trying to find and label dogs pits (see the links above to see what a waste of tax payer dollars that ended up being in some cases) and take care of the strays – who have been known to attack and, in one very highly publicized case, kill. Honestly, the strays (true strays, not just lost dogs who’ve maybe been on their own for a couple months) that are in a pack and dogs unattended on peoples porches [of any breed - the pack mentality can make anything vicious] are what is scary to me.

#754

Disregarding the numbers and an increase of fatalities is also a disregard of the injuries and hospital stays.

It shuts down that an obvious way to stop the problem is to seriously restrain from distributing the dogs - and it would force an admittance that there is an issue.

The problem is, again, the level of destruction that these dogs cause when they do attack.

Fatalities are one area but there is also the amount of hospital stays, reconstruction studies - COST and search for responsibility regarding cost and reconstruction.

These are peer reviewed studies that are medical and are increasing in respect since the injuries that happen are that serious.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51034290_Mortality_Mauling_and_Maiming_by_Vicious_ Dogs

https://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

3 Likes
#755

I’ve owned or have had experience with large dogs all my life, mostly shepherds, all were rescues with bad stories. My last shepherd was a King/Belgium cross and was huge. He ended up with me because I got a call from a friend in AC telling me this 11 month dog was scheduled for euthanasia the next day because he was too aggressive to adopt out. I told my friend I would take the dog for a week to see what could be done, if I couldn’t reach this dog at the end of the week they could take him back and put him down. He had broken teeth, ripped claws and a deep, infected gash around his neck from being kept on a chain in a busy trailer park. This was an angry, stressed out and highly agitated puppy that weighed over 100lbs even undernourished. I was successful with him to the point that he bonded to me and we spent 13 wonderful years together. He could not be trusted with other people besides my son who lives with me or any other animals besides our cats.

Speaking only off the top of my head I think that there should be an across the board BSL for all dogs(excluding pit bulls/types)that are on the aggressive dog list. These dogs should be licensed and only have homes with owners that can provide a properly contained yard and ensure that they are properly restrained, under control and muzzled at all times when in any public area. Owners should not have free rein to breed their dogs, for those that want to breed their dogs some sort of a legal system(license/application maybe?) should be created that possibly involves only professionally licensed and controlled breeders that offer stud fees. The breeding end of it would need to be fine tuned of course but it should be under lawful control. I realize that you have intact males and that you may want to offer them at stud some day but so could BillyJoJimBob down the road wanting to breed wolf-dogs, which is why breeding needs to be downsized and heavily regulated. Once any BSL is created and in place, owners should be heavily fined/jail time and forced to surrender their dog(s) for euthanization if they have bitten, attacked or killed a person or other animal. For any other infraction of the BSL laws there should be a three strikes your out policy with very heavy fines and mandatory follow-ups/inspections by AC. Again, these are only ideas and guidelines.

#756

I’ve told you many times what type of pit bull/type BSL I agree with…since you’re asking me this question once again it proves you haven’t listened to much of what I’ve said.

1 Like
#757

Totally agree!

Both of those “peer reviewed studies” have been linked on this site before and khall dismissed them.

#758

CT actually no those articles have not been cited before. I have looked at them in my research. You are correct in stating “peer review studies” because they should be in quotes. The last article is an article and NOT a study. Read it, it summarizes other articles and misrepresents the CDC study and the JAVMA study that I have linked to before. All of these organizations and journal (CDC, AVMA and JAVMA) do not support BSLs. No reputable organization does, even down to Obama white house.

The actual “study” has its own issues, with blatant breed bias borrowed from dogsbite.org. Here is the issues with this “study”: [h=1]Imprudent use of Unreliable Dog Bite Tabulations and Unpublished Sources[/h] could not get to this article at this time but is in reference to the above “study”. When a study cites completely biased information from a site such as dogsbite (table 3 in the article) and the “objective” is to show that pit bulls cause the gravest injuries, yeah sorry but that was a big old spin there.

Again though, the case presentation, these dogs had a bite history already and were not taken out of the population then. It is the owners here at fault. She left a small child unattended with two large dogs loose in the house. Two dogs that had a bite history and were “protective” of her.

This article pokes all the holes in this “study” that raised red flags to me:
http://jimcrosby.canineaggressionissueswithjimcrosby.com/2011/05/response-to-injury-study.html

1 Like
#759

rock, the one instance of lunging at a person unprovoked is exactly why I had the bully I rescued euthanized. The first indication was when I had him out for my farrier at that time who raises APBT and Staffies (shows them, multi titles them, VERY responsible breeder who may have one litter every couple of years) and is a judge of these breeds, took a look at him. Big guy standing over the dog and the dog growled at him, he was not alarmed but made me pause. What stopped me cold though was when he lunged, barked and growled at my young son, that was the end of him. I just wished more people would realize the gravity of a dog showing unprovoked aggression to humans and take the necessary steps to take those dogs out of the population.

3 Likes
#760

What was interesting for me was that one study linked to another… and the approach is in regards to the injuries.

  • Maxillofacial_Injuries_Due_to_Animal_Bites
    Bite wounds are mainly caused by dogs, cats and humans in decreasing order of frequency. They include superficialabrasions (30–43 %), lacerations (31–45 %), and puncture wounds (13–34 %). Bite wounds account for about 1–2 % of all emergency department visits annually in the USA, costing over US $100 million annually Dog bites account for more than 70 % of the total animal bites incidence. A survey conducted during 2001–2003 in the USA estimated 4.5 million dog bites year with an incidence rate of 16.6/1,000 in adults and 13.1/1,000 in children [6]

And then there are the studies discussed and linked to in the LiveScience link in previous post:

Pediatric dog bite injuries: a 5-year review of the experience at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.

and
[
Dog bite-related fatalities: a 15-year review of Kentucky medical examiner cases

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