Marilyn Little...do we pretend it never happened?

[sixteenhands]

[QUOTE=teddygirl;8528576]
Hmm. I also remember that ML entered eventing loudly proclaiming that eventers didn’t know how to show jump and she was going to show them all how it’s done. Not necessarily the best way to bond with people in a new discipline.

She’s also known for huddling with vets behind curtains in the FEI barn trying to get her horses sound enough for the final jog. Eventers take their horsemanship seriously and between the stuff in the barns and the bitting stuff she’s just not winning fans.[/QUOTE]

Can you post a link to the quote from Marilyn that says exactly what you claim she said, that eventers did not know how to show jump and she was going to show them how.

Unless you had FEI credentials you do not know what happened in a FEI barn and you are relying on rumor and repeating it here.

[vineyridge]

It’s not rumor if an FEI Steward said she was on a “watch list”. It’s also not rumor that a Feelgood vet, suspended for five years in Florida, bragged to the Florida authorities that he did vet work for her performance horses. Source–Florida authorities.

[chunky_munky]

Actually, yes it is a rumor as the above is all hearsay.

[fordtraktor]

Besides, that pic of Demeter is not a loosering, it’s a two ring elevator. With a large man riding. I can’t see what the mouthpiece is on the prior owner pic of Scandalous but that flash is cranked tight and her jaw is working against it. The flash is digging in. Sorry but those pics don’t prove anything about how those horses are polite rides XC to me.

And viney, all of that is beyond rumor. Especially given what I’ve seen both on the H/J and eventing side.

the barns at a Four Star after XC at are not for the faint of heart these days. It’s hardly just Marilyn who does things most of the world would be a little uncomfortable with if they knew…the horses don’t just go in their stalls and eat hay until they get tacked up 20 minutes before they show jump the next day. Does that mean the sport is too much? well, maybe it does. But it isn’t ML who made it that way.

[Kat]

I know ML, not well but we have some mutual friends and she ships in to the farm I ride at every once in a while and we’ve had some nice chats about her horses. I’ve seen her school her horses at home in a smart, kind way and I’ve watched a friend of mine ride some of her horses, he is a big strong german rider and while he does a good job with them, it doesn’t look easy. ML has always been professional around me and I’ve seen her take good care of her horses both in the ring and outside of it. Her personality doesn’t exactly scream, I’m here to make friends with everybody but from my firsthand experience she does seem like a diligent horse person and a kind rider.
just my $0.02

[vineyridge]

Hearsay is NOT rumor. It is fact that was told to the witness by the person who experienced it. If hearsay were rumor, it would not be allowed so often in legal (and arbitration) proceedings–which it is. So if I told you that I had personally seen someone abusing a horse and you passed that on to the authorities, you would be passing on “rumor”? Hearsay, yes, but I defy you to say that is “rumor”.

[fordtraktor]

I am a lawyer. Hearsay is not permitted by the rules of evidence because it is unreliable. That’s classic, blackletter law. Hearsay is not permitted in legal proceedings. It’s one of the reasons we stand up and say “objection-- hearsay!” in court. Sorry but not sure where you got the idea this is OK, the opposite is true. If you told me that you had seen someone abusing a horse, we would have to call you in personally to testify. I could not testify for you. It is rumor if I tell the cops about it.

[chunky_munky]

Not to mention that you need to produce a record of these people making these statements, not just you heard about it from your cousins best friends brother.

[vineyridge]

In fact hearsay evidence is standard in arbitration proceedings. It is also allowed frequently in court under a rather large number of “hearsay” exceptions. Those are hearsay , but are deemed reliable and admitted if certain conditions are met. They are admitted even though the person who made them is not available as a witness.

IME, there are so many exceptions to the hearsay rule that it’s more honored in the breach than the wall.

The federal courts have recently put this into play:

Rule 805. Hearsay Within Hearsay

Hearsay within hearsay is not excluded by the rule against hearsay if each part of the combined statements conforms with an exception to the rule.

So saying hearsay is not allowed in court is not at all true.

[vineyridge]

No one suggested that the statements that I made about ML were heard from someone’s best friend’s brother. I cited the direct source of the statements from which my knowledge came, but not by name because that would be wrong IMO.

Heck, Hearsay Exception 21 in Rule 803 of the Federal Rules of Evidence says:

(21) Reputation Concerning Character. A reputation among a person’s associates or in the community concerning the person’s character.
That’s admissible in a federal trial. There are no limits stated in the rule.

[Equibrit]

http://the900facebookpony.com/2015/10/23/when-does-control-become-abuse/

[fordtraktor]

There are some exceptions, but they are exceptions. The basic rule is that hearsay is inadmissible. The exceptions usually have to do with things like “the original witness is dead” etc.

Character evidence is admissible but it has to be direct.

[goodmorning]

The worst & only things Ive heard about MLM are from h/j land :lol: I’ve actually never heard or had a conversation about her with a fellow eventer - good/bad/indifferent. I wanted to like her as an eventer (also coming from a h/j land) but I can’t. She’s not an ambassador of the sport, which you should be if you are receiving grants & representing our country. Wearing the red coat is a priveledge. Image is part of the game. She’s a risk due to her questionable horsemanship & biting fiasco. As others have mentioned she’s very lucky she been allowed to complete some recent events…raising her hand & then jumping an extra fence recently when Fair Hill didn’t work out? Her attitude, it doesn’t have to be friendly, but the overall horsemanship…

I suppose we can thank MLM for aiding in the microchip ping rule. This type of thing is probably why she’s quite welcomed in some trainer circles. She supplies nice horses with identities that are up to interpretation

[bamboopole]

Having ridden a freight train that needed more than a loose ring snaffle to stop, and turn, I have no problem with a rider using whatever tack is necessary. I’ve never ridden an advanced level event horse at speed over jumps, but I’d sure want maximum control.
If this rider was not flagged by the stewards at any events, she obviously did nothing wrong (in their opinions).

[sixteenhands]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8528926]
It’s not rumor if an FEI Steward said she was on a “watch list”. [/QUOTE]

What FEI rule mentions a “watch list”? Is it official, recorded by FEI Stewards and Judges, or is it something else COTH posters talk about when Marilyn’s name is mentioned but do not know if it is true.

[vineyridge]

There are two or three rules with multiple subparts that are devoted to the exceptions to the hearsay rule–I think I counted over thirty in the federal rules alone. And I would add that more are added every time the rules are revised because when I was in school forty years ago, there were far fewer. And the comments leave room for other on the fly exceptions.

Of course no one would allow reputation testimony from someone who wasn’t a part of the community or had direct knowledge from associates; but it is allowed.

[vineyridge]

If an FEI Steward says there is an FEI “watch list”, I tend to believe him/her.

[SendenHorse]

as I said before, the camera phones will be out in FULL FORCE in 2016! All eyes on deck!

I’m coming from dressage world where these bits just make me go “whaaaaat?” I do ride at an event barn, so I get that being in a dressage court is not the same as a XC ride, but still…!

[sixteenhands]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8529145]
If an FEI Steward says there is an FEI “watch list”, I tend to believe him/her.[/QUOTE]

Here we go again, did the FEI Steward tell you this directly or is this another rumor? Just because you read it on the Internet (or COTH) that does not mean it is true.

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=handwalk;8529121]
Having ridden a freight train that needed more than a loose ring snaffle to stop, and turn, I have no problem with a rider using whatever tack is necessary. I’ve never ridden an advanced level event horse at speed over jumps, but I’d sure want maximum control.
If this rider was not flagged by the stewards at any events, she obviously did nothing wrong (in their opinions).[/QUOTE]
That makes the point here Freight trains & bitting isn’t unknown in the eventing or h/j world. However, the same rider having different mounts with bloody mouths at different events? It’s not normal. It’s not acceptable. No one wants a bloody horse running around & because of her connections & a FEI loophole she’s gotten away with it. That doesn’t mean anyone is saying get it done in a French link like Michael Jung :lol: safe does mean breaks & steering. Regardless, when you are running around on the USEF/USEA dime you can’t have this happen multiple times. You don’t think the stewards are going to place an extra eye on Team USA now? She’s also received an FEI slap for misuse of the bit prior to these incidents. This is not new territory for her.

My ultimate concern is rushing horses up the level leading to serious injury to both horse and rider. Big bits & bloody mouths to me mean a step has been missed, in horse and or rider development. The fact that this is of no concern to MLM is why I can’t support her. She’s not the sport. When she gets hurt or dies or one of her mounts does, honestly & truly no one wants to say “I told you so.” We don’t want to see it happen. It’s a sad state of horsemanship.