What I see as an ideal outcome is that she’d have been disqualified just once or even better seen the potential problem in training, taken a harder look at her methods, and found better ways to do what she’s trying to do. (Preferably at Prelim or thereabouts.) It looks like she’s got most of what it takes to succeed (guts, talent, drive, stacks of money behind her); I doubt we’d see the last of her.
I don’t remotely give her a pass for making what look from here like some very bad choices, but I wonder where our officials are in this too. If we need a zero-tolerance rule to take it seriously so be it.
BTW, FEI Eventing ground jury for WEG 2018: Anne Mette Binder (DEN, president), Jane Hamlin (USA), Andrew Bennie (NZL).
Clearly eventers think about the welfare of the horses. Clearly Eventers want to better our sport. The difference is, this isn’t common in eventing, and we don’t want it to become one of those sports where it’s allowed. The disciplines you’ve mentioned, clearly there is more to the issue then what eventing has. We don’t want it to get to that point, so we stand as one and are trying to make a difference.
I would hope one day that the people of those disciplines wake up and want to make a difference of their own discipline.
Apparently she got away with a bloody mouth over in Europe a couple of years ago, so it will be interesting to see if members of the ground jury not from the USA will be willing to smack her down if she is brazen enough to not change something and try to prevent the blood at the world championships (if she goes).
I’m not an eventer but I am in the H/J world, and I feel its only a matter of time before this bleeds over (no pun intended) to the SJ world. Though I don’ think the ground jury would be so forgiving there. Pissing off one billionaire backer in SJ wouldn’t be a huge blow since there are so many :lol: .
We certainly have more than our fair share of problems in the H/J world but I think a horse bleeding from the mouth would get a visceral reaction from EVERYONE that would force the powers that be to take action. We’re not as tough as eventers and we’re not used to seeing blood. Which is not to say that we aren’t RIFE with problems… but I do think the “soldier on, keep going, don’t be a cupcake” attitude of eventing might be part of the explanation with why this didn’t cause a furor the first time or two. Now that it’s been SEVERAL occasions on different horses, I don’t see how any can ignore it no matter the discipline-- but the attitude of “toughness” is a little different between the two disciplines.
I find the COTH policy interesting, because they’re intimating that something must have happened publicly or there must be some legal action or investigation that can be cited. But Stormy’s EDH thread stayed up, based mostly only on her narrative for quite a while (until corroborating witnesses showed up).
And in a court of law, the account posted would be considered evidence. I suspect (and only suspect) that legal threats about you talking here are going to only be bluster, because anything more will require them to go through discovery and testify in court.
As a side note, it sounds like your daughter is talented and a hard worker - so I hope she finds her way to some success with horses (even if that success is not in the show ring).
On the subject of zero tolerance for blood - I somewhat agree with the poster that would hate to see that one rider with a random injury get DQ’d after all the hard work, but realistically, how often would that happen? Additionally, we know that problems elsewhere in the mouth (besides where the bit goes or noseband crosses) can create serious issues for horses, so it seems totally within the realm of possibility that small injuries even in places that seem unaffected by the bit, could be a real problem for the horse. I think seeing it happen repeatedly sort of forces the issue and suggests we need an objective and clear protocol for it that doesn’t involve “discretion”
Outstanding idea. Should be the standard in all disciplines. The trick is getting the yellow cards consistently applied. That’s not happening niw, one rider gets tagged for a too tight noseband, the other doesn’t. Fix that. Given FEIs track record dealing with the Endurance community, don’t hold your breath.
Over 50 years, have had one horse bleed in the mouth in the show ring. Rather profusely. It was a western breed show, nice barely 3yo stud colt in a Junior (young horse) WP class. Excused myself, rather horrified and embarrassed . It was a late baby tooth that wasn’t quite ready to come out, must have knocked it loose in the stall or something. Wasn’t on him for long before the class ( he was a really easy warn up). Worked it’s way mostly out then started to bleed. Vet yanked the rest out right outside the ring, said he could go in the rest of his classes, owner and I passed on that and scratched. It can happen.
Had one other bleed, my fault, loose ring snaffle, no bit guards. Stupid and embarrassing. Have seen others bleed, knew exactly why and it was nothing good. Ironic, those riders were not embarrassed at all.
I received a message from a friend on FB. I think this gives us some scary clarity about what ML thinks.
A friend takes lessons from Marilyn Little and I saw her and poked for her opinion. And apparently ML will only admit to this happening one other time. She says the horse is really strong so she bit her up, she bled, and she bit her back down and that’s the only other occasion than Rolex. obviously it’s happened more, but I thought that was interesting and that I would share it with you.
FWIW I found this
“Horse Noseband check: FEI Stewards of all disciplines to pay particular attention to ensure that nosebands are not overtightened. It must be possible to place at least one finger between the horse’s cheek and the noseband. Nosebands must never be used in such a way that they interfere with a horse’s breathing. This check can be carried out at any time the steward feels that a nose band appears to be too tight (preferably after the test); if the steward carrying out this check finds the nose band is too tight, the steward must ask the groom to loosen the nose band so that one finger can fit between the nose band and the cheek of the horse. If it happens again the rider should receive a yellow card for not following the instruction of the steward. Updated 11.10.2016”
Because you will get reamed at by the professional. They will argue with you, insult you, question your judgment, threaten to never come back to the event again, etc. You upset the entire applecart and, it is all very political - you don’t want to be the person or the reason that makes a big pro with tons of client and client horses never come to the event again.
BTDT. Once as a ring steward/bit check at a well known event at the east coast, said a BNT’s noseband was too tight (couldn’t even get finger under the caveson). BNT went apoplectic. TD said to loosen, pro did, and then when they thought we weren’t looking, had the groom come and tighten it again before the test… Unless it is a major welfare issue, I think unfortunately people and officials are conditioned to keep their mouths shut.
Absolutely, THIS ^! I have written over and over that Officials need to be accountable. The President of the Ground Jury, TD’s and CD’s need to be responsible for their actions, or lack thereof. Stewards need to be protected from ULR’s, so that they can do their jobs correctly.
I know of an FEI Official who is lambasting anyone on Facebook that questioned the decision to let ML ride. He believes, because we are not FEI qualified, we know nothing. Human beings are fallible. We bow to outside pressure. ML has friends in very high places in our sport. Who is willing to challenge those friends to step up to the plate for horse welfare? Just curious?
I had a very knowledgeable takes no shit off people friend come do bit check for the dressage at our local event. One big pro, who does have a good reputation, his noseband was so tight that she couldn’t check the bit. He said that he would have someone bring the bridle back to her, after the ride when he took it off (back at the barn). She said no he got mad. She told me not to ask her back, we lost a good volunteer, bc she said she didn’t need to be treated that way.
I will strongly disagree with how the H/J world sees ML and blood in a horse’s mouth. I have a USEF “R” judge that is a friend on FB. She has judged at some of the largest shows in the US and knows her horses. She basically jumped all over me for going on a “witch hunt” because I was offended that this has happened multiple times on multiple horses. I asked how she would feel if a certain competitor kept showing under her as a judge and the horse’s mouth bled at multiple shows. I did not get a direct answer. I also saw another well-known USEF judge was supporting ML as well. If these well-known judges think ML is not doing anything wrong, our entire sport is screwed.
Exactly. I’ve known many volunteers to not come back to events because they were treated poorly by pros just because they (the volunteers) were trying to do the scope of their job to the best of their abilities.
Unfortunately, it’s not so easy as “making officials accountable”. It’s not one badly formed cog that’s causing us grief – it’s the assembly of the machine. The entire structure of the FEI and how influential people with money (owners, sponsors) can be.
Like I said. It’s impossible to not tip the apple-cart in a lot of situations.
I didn’t mean how H/J judges respond to ML eventing. I meant how spectators/the general membership would respond to seeing it happen in the Hunter/jumper ring.
I had an upper level rider berate me in front of a TD because I recorded a refusal for them on x county. I followed the exact instructions they gave us at the morning meeting and I event myself so I know one when I see one. She basically pulled the “i’m a professional and I know what I was doing, she’s a volunteer and didn’t understand what she saw”.
It was very frustrating when the TD overruled my 20 just to appease her.
These tales of pros going ballistic if the noseband is not as tight as it can possibly be resonates with my experience as well, in clinics and lessons with pros.
One of the things I’ve decided are no longer ever part of my horse experience are tight nosebands. This has thinned down the list of clinics I can go to, because of the clinicians who will not accept this from a student. If the noseband has any give whatsoever, the clinician goes to pieces, pitches a nearly-abusive fit, and if the rider stands pat, will virtually exclude that rider from the clinic experience, even if they don’t actually kick them out.
I can’t imagine why the pros have so much energy over keeping nosebands as tight as they can be pulled. I can’t see what the cost is to them with that minute extra give in the noseband. I don’t know why some pros have made this a hill they will die on, both at the student level and at the sport level.
If the judges are dinging scores because the horse has more activity in his mouth, isn’t that the opposite of what we should be scoring and teaching? It’s supposed to be a conversation with the horse, isn’t it? How can the horse communicate back to the rider if they can’t move their jaw?
If the judging is part of the noseband thing then we need to address that. Judging standards are supposed to encourage good behavior, but they can do the opposite and promote the worst as well, if that is what it takes to get the scores.
It’s funny because I’ve found this to be very true at the lower levels.
A horse that is dead quiet but totally unconnected is often scored better than a horse that is maybe greener or not quiet, but is attempting to have a connection and be submissive. Instead of seeing dressage as training and a progression where horses are learning and making mistakes, it turns into a hunter flat class. No life, no expression, no communication between horse and rider.
When someone said that the BNR in question nerves tails and over tightens nosebands I didn’t understand at first. The more I thought about it the more it made sense, even at the lower levels. I would never do it, but if our horses are expected to be dressage robots I can see why some people take drastic and immoral measures.
The pro’s behavior is a bad example to their students, both the younger students and the mature students. Arguing disrespectfully with a jump judge is the last thing riders should do and pros shouldn’t be demonstrating such behavior. Not accepting a score with good sportsmanship, despite the frustration, doesn’t help students understand that some days things don’t go your way, and we go on from there.
I hope the TD had a better reason for the overrule than appeasing a pro. If he/she did not, then shame on them for extending the bad example.
We will have the sport we tolerate. If boundaries are being crossed by the officials, if they aren’t doing their jobs, there is no one but the participants to hold the line.
