I don’t think any trainer should make their riders leave in tears and think about giving up dressage and selling their horse. I don’t get a rat’s ass if they’re a woman or a man. Suggesting that people are complaining because Mary’s a woman is ridiculous.
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I’m not the best rider, but I got through a 3 day clinic without much trouble. But before the clinic, I had already been training with a MW instructor, so I knew what to expect. I was on an older paint mare, and Mary treated us just fine. She is very intense but she really helped me to use my core strongly. I think it’s definitely worth it to ride with her in at least one clinic. You will get a lot out of auditing also, but not near the same as riding and being tortured a little by her. I tried really hard to do everything she said and only talked when she asked me questions; I think if she sees you are serious about improving she works hard to help. We did some walking maybe 1/2 of the first day’s lesson, but then trotted most of the rest of the time, but did not canter. Only one rider cried in the clinic I was in, but it seemed that she was a true beginner and it was probably too soon to ride with MW. Definitely watch some videos and/or read or even just look at the pictures in one of her books. If you have a MW book, bring it with and she will sign it. I can now get on any horse with any saddle and put myself in the correct position to use my seat correctly. I definitely recommend finding a MW trainer in the US to train with as much as you can also, there is so much to learn from them. Every lesson I take with my trainer is so valuable (and she never makes anyone cry!)
I also can get on any horse and not upset them.
When I came back to Qld after being a Level 1 Instructor in NSW and riding 8 horses a day and many pf them in a lessons for over a year, I put Mum on Pepper.
Mum the woman who taught me to ride and train horses for the first 23 years of my life. Pepper who I had owned since the age of 15yo and Mum had helped me train him as I was a beginner after my father died and the farm and horses were sold. Mum who was an instructor at 3 different ponyclubs in 3 different States of Australia.
I kept her in walk for the first day, teaching her how to use her seat. Pepper helped by putting his muzzle above his wither when she did not get it.
On the 2nd day we were able to progress to trot with her not losing her seat. On getting it she was amazed at the results and kept saying over and over but it is so easy. Pepper was now going like a dressage horse without the reins doing it.
So, she made a beginner cry. Now what becomes of said beginner? It’s probably a tossup if she will go home and try to figure it out on her own or simply give up.
It seems to me that a real instructor would tailor the lesson to the student.
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Well… I have ridden with Mary for years, and I have ridden with others. I always come from a MW clinic with new feels and new ideas. She always tries to come up with different ways of communicating if one way does not work. She does care, which may result in frustration on everyone’s part if she cannot get the rider to make the change she is seeking.
Then I rode with Arthur Kottas, exactly one clinic. All he did was tell me to do a 20 meter circle, now across the diagonal, canter, lengthen… Nothing about why, what I should feel, and how I could do it better. Just a lot of “good, good…” and if it all was good, why was I there? I left angry at wasting my money getting nothing out of it. Others were delighted, because the famous Kottas had said “good, good…” as they rode.
I’d rather have someone who wanted to communicate how to ride better, and cared enough to say, if the rider and teacher were repeatedly failing to connect and get a better result, that this was not a good match. Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. At least she communicated that you were wasting your money going to her clinics. Maybe not what you wanted to hear, not the way you wanted to hear it, but IMHO far better than the empty “good, good…”.
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Not all clinicians are for all riders, but if one told me that riding with them was a waste of my money and to not come back I’d call my bank and cancel my check. No point in paying them. Me deciding that they were a bad match after the lesson and deciding to not come back is different.
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The check was made out to the clinic organizer or I certainly would have.
And I did tell her that I would not be back.
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I used to do tech support over the phone for professional income tax prep programs, usually installed on a network. Many times these networks were klugy at best. It was my job to figure out the problem without being able to see it.
And then tell the person on the other end of the phone how fix it.
It involved asking a lot of questions and having to explain what I needed them to do, often in several different ways, and hoping that that person understood and was following my instructions until we reached a solution.
Repeating the same phrase over and over would NOT have been acceptable.
I guess I expect the same of an instructor/clinician. If something isn’t working…DO SOMETHING ELSE, explain the concept differently, tell the student that she is not understanding. Don’t just keep on repeating what’s not working.
Insanity indeed.
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THIS really struck a chord with me. Why would this work with anyone??? What does it accomplish?
i do not understand what my coach is saying to me most of the time.
And when i’ve watched instructional videos, it’s the same.
What i THink would work best for me is to tell me what exactly you want my horse to look like and let me try to get there…
like…once my coach said the words: shaped like a banana i got it. Tell me what you want to see. I’m not a dressage follower, i don’t know about serpentines or spirals or shoulder-ins and when a horse should have an angle or when the horse should be parallel to a rail. Tell me how you want the horses body to be… nose to the right, tic-tic-tic with right heel…that isn’t helping. Let me visualize the horse’s body first…THEN adjust my cues.
Last week she said she wanted to take a video to show her other students ‘how to follow the nose’ (on raw beginner/first steps baby) and i didn’t have a CLUE what those words meant! Lovely to know i did something she thought was good, but WHAT was it exactly? Googled follow the nose and got not much that helped. *(soi i’ll quiz her down on this next lesson)
i want someone to speak to me in a way i understand. To get there, to get a trainer to talk to me i will stop…just stop riding, and quiz-down with a series of questions until i get the drift.
Does Mary Wanless speak to students about how she wants a horse to look…or just lead you down the path toward a goal that she knows but doesn’t know that you don’t?
If you dont understand what your coach is saying much of the time, you need a new coach! Different people respond to different techniques and not every trainer has more than one method to to teach. (In fact some barely have one!)
IMO, many students dont question enough. They try and nod politely but never tell the instructor that they really dont understand. Now, I dont mean to slam to a halt for a philosophical discussion after every direction, but there should be two way communication. I have stopped riding with instructors who wont do this.
I think many dressage instructors will be hesitent to tell you haow things should look and then leave you to figure it out. Dressage is full of subtle feel and correct biomechanics. Too many riders can get a horse to “look right” at the lower levels, but cn be unwittingly “faking it” without correct mechanics. Then the exercise loses its value and the horse/rider are unable to progress.
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This ^^^
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meh. your choice to go-there but not at all what i was trying to get at.
I’m not talking about ‘carriage’ stuff. Not at all. Having a vertical head isn’t at all what i’m talking about, or a frame… And, fwiw, not my way to use force of almost any kind, (i consider pressure ‘force’ ergo my word almost) It’s kinda against my religion to use apparatus to achieve an illusion.
In my example i said that ‘banana shape’ was a meaningful description of what she was looking for. I also mentioned whether the equine should be parallel to the wall or at an angle…straight or bent while going is also something i would like to know.
don’t get all cha-ching when you don’t even attempt understand what i am trying to say.
I understand exactly what you’re saying. You don’t want anyone to tell you how because you think you can figure it out yourself. Your understanding of dressage is rudimentary at best. You should welcome good instruction from someone who can explain how to do things. Otherwise, you could save your money and just read a few books.
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If I remember correctly, you don’t ride dressage at all? It can be really hard to teach dressage to someone who doesn’t understand what the general goals are. All of the lingo and general frame/goal is missing. I also don’t understand how you don’t want to use any pressure at all? Perhaps you’re seeking a different type of instructor and that might better suit you.
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right. i’ve only been taking dressage lessons about a year? year and a half…
i try to get to a place on any given exercise or movement where i can understand what it is my trainer wants done. Like…as in example about that guy, Arthur Kottas, telling students where to go in the arena and telling students good, good, good. I would want to know WHAT part of this is good. What are you wanting?
When i was learning to spiral in and spiral out, all i knew was there were ever constricting circles and ever expanding circles…ok, i got that. So i did my best to keep a geometric form to the circle. I did not know until my horse curved her body inward as we got into the tight, innermost circle on that spiral that THAT was a good thing, (“YAASSSS Banana-shape!”) and yes, that is how your horse should be on the outer part too. That this spiral is to help my horse learn to bend, both directions. So, i’m like: Tell-me what it is we are supposed to do/be please. I want to understand this. What is it we want from this exercise?
How i am being instructed is pretty R+ actually… like clicker-training. I get approval when i get it right. Now, i think that if i had any idea what it is that is right in the first place, i think i could get to there with less frustration. Like…gimme a ‘click’ upon little-steps along the way so i know i’m getting ‘warmer’…
I train my animals in tiny steps. I learn better this way too. (does that make sense?)
as for pressure… well, i am now being taught to use more. This is a process, especially with reins…apparantly my mare is seeking more contact? So, i have to ask: How do you know that? What is it that tells you that?
I stop and ask things like: Why tic-tic-tic instead of steady (or increasing) calf pressure. I want to know.
I could go to clinics i suppose…but well, there are a lot obstacles to that. Online seems easier except you can’t ask questions. Which is why i’m interested in Mary Wanless. Her online stuff seems like it’s a good way to learn. That she has a pretty thorough pretext at the start of her various…things. It might be worth it to me to try for a clinic with her. I doubt she would make me cry lol.
Spiraling in and out is more than just bending, the horse half passes in and leg yields out.
‘Follow the nose’ I presume is being straight. You don’t want the horse turning its head one way and going sideways with it’s body the other.
From another thread someone referred to you as only walking? Is that true? Trot is the training gait. 1.5 years in dressage lessons that are now 2 hours on different horses, you should be doing more than walk by now, even on horses who were not dressage horses to begin with.
I understand and empathize if you are in pain and are unable to trot.
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Trotting on two of them, though my snorty show candidate and i just began trotting during our lessons a couple/few? months ago. (very recently) She was out for a few months because of EPM…And now she’s still recovering from an impaled hoof…so it’s going to be a while before she’s back in lessons. Still walking with all the others at the moment. Buckskin guy who is western will be back to trotting probably this week…if we get his left side working again.
So, back to Mary Wanless please…
What about her presentation makes it clear and understandable to those of you who appreciate her? Does she act-out, motion what she wants you (or the horse) to do? Does she show you on another horse? Does she tell the same thing three different ways? What makes her such a good clinician?
MW will tell you what to do with your body, what it should feel like, and how it will affect the horse. An example is using your core. She will put her fingers on your stomach by your diaphragm and tell you this is where you push. She’ll probably have you clear your throat to give you that pushing from your center feeling. While riding, to keep that feeling she’ll ask you to make a “PSHHHHHH” sound, which will activate your core, or to clear your throat. She spends a lot of time on this with riders because it’s so important. Your center has to stay with the horse’s center, and go forward to keep the horse going forward (he wants to stay underneath you with you balanced on him).
I enjoy her because her explanations just make sense to me. How many times did trainers tell you to stretch your upper body tall? This actually makes it weaker; a more compressed martial arts stance is much stronger. And a stronger core makes it easier for the rest of your body to move independently. The focus is on changing you in a way that improves your horse and allows him to move correctly.
An introduction to her teaching is in her book Ride With Your Mind Essentials. Lots of illustrations with short chapters explaining things in a step by step way. (I found mine used from Thrift books).
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Mary is all about rider biomechanics and how your body effects the horse. She is pretty cerebral in that she will make you think about HOW and WHY your body works the way it does. I can see how to some people, this might feel like being put under a microscope. Its very frustrating when you think you are moving your leg correctly, and then being told to re-wire your muscle memory to move your leg in a better way (say, go from clamping with thighs to not clamping with thighs) Judging from her media, she is pretty hands-on and will use a large yoga ball to illustrate movements. She has many books and videos out there, so it is pretty easy to see if her style meshes with yours.
Generally speaking (not targeting you eightpond) I never audit or attend a clinic unless I researched the instructor first. Even though there are useful nuggets from just about every instructor, I don’t think everyone is good at teaching in a clinic format. Also I see if the horses attending the clinic are at the same level as me. While its fun to watch the upper level riders, I get a lot more out of auditing if a horse/rider pair is in a level similar to my own.
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If she doesn’t want to teach Arabs, why doesn’t she state that on the entry form? I’ve seen clinicians decline stallions, green babies, etc…so why not be clear, unless she just enjoys being right?
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