I’m not making this thread about you. You could have done otherwise. You can also stop telling people to “ease up” and trying to parse “not a joke” from "was tongue in cheek.’
Not for nuthin’ but crossing boundaries and then getting mad at the person who pointed out where the line was is exactly how we got into this mess.
I’m just the person who walks the walk of “see something, say something.” If people are contributing to pushing this under the rug, I’ll make noise about it.
I suppose so… but so what? If being pretty is verifiably not the main feature held in common by victims of sexual assault, where does anyone get off naming beauty/ugliness as some kind of causal factor? Nosirreebob-- that’s just delivering gratuitous insult to a vicim. And what’s the pay-off, exactly?
Actually, some of these “only adjacent” discussions ought to be had in public. IMO, that’s because folks seem to have lots of pet theories about how sexual assault happens… or does not. So long as ideas like those are allowed to drift around, we will continue to not have a solid, common definition of sexual predation and assault. I think that secrecy contributed to how common it was for people to tolerate various forms of sexual assault in the past.
I believe you can acknowledge something without making something an excuse. We do it all the time in other areas. We don’t give burglars an excuse if they grow up poor. We don’t give domestic abusers an excuse because they were abused as children.
Well, you’re not pretty enough to be assaulted honey, we just don’t believe that he would do that anyone so ugly as you… Yuck.:no:
This is what the crux of that line of the discussion was: How women can often turn on each other and place judgement/value on an event based on external factors. It it happens from both sides of the equations, ‘She doesn’t understand because she must be ugly and thus has never been harassed/abused.’ (what we saw on this thread) or ‘I don’t believe her story because she’s ugly and I don’t think anyone would want to harass/abuse her.’
Discussing the appearance of anyone that has been sexual assaulted and/or intimidated is ignorant and non-productive, and IMHO wholeheartedly disgusting.
Yes, it is ignorant and disgusting…but I don’t think non-productive. Identifying where the tendency to make those judgement lies is productive, at least in my opinion.
Also, for the purposes of the conversation on this thread, it had nothing to do with victims, but rather of women defending JW.
I didn’t say Susie was suffering the “same amount” as the people who have come forward. What I did say is that ALL of these women are suffering in their own personal way, with their own experiences, memories, and emotions. Everyone affected has their own hell.
Yes, I said this is an important discussion, which is why I suggested last night that the passive aggressive nonsense be taken to PM.
Predation and molestation and rape are acts of power, coercion, manipulation. To suggest someone is a target because of how they look is not a little bit of victim blaming. Also, predators can be drawn to any number of things-- social conventions of beauty may not be what draws them in. It could be being a child, for instance. Or a sense of a vulnerable victim. Or… the list is endless.
RugBug I do not think you can generalize as to who is targeted by predators. Each predator has their own twisted view of what they want. Social conventions of beauty might appeal to some. But certainly that cannot be seen as the defining characteristic of whom predators choose to target. Vulnerability of the target is one thing that draws in predators-- they need a target they can potentially access. Predators are not likely to spend time targetting someone they cannot access.
Such studies that exist indicate that a person might be targetted because they are seen as weak or submissive.
Social conventions of beauty do not make someone a target, or not a target. It all depends on the perversions of the predator.
Don’t victim blame.
[QUOTE=Sunflower;n10080112]
. Predators operate in a world where there is a horrible silence and a great deal of denial around their actions. It is unlikely that what they do is not known, more likely that it is well known but not acknowledged, papered over, ignored. /QUOTE]
Another aspect of the COTH articles are the comments on social media from well known riders and trainers who were around during the time the allegations happened. They say that many of them were well aware of what was going on at barns and horse shows in southern California.
How do they feel now, knowing the devastating affect the abuse had on the lives of people they still know ? Maybe one of them will come forward and say why they remained silent.
Probably because, even if they did want to speak out, there was nowhere to go. Do not underestimate that. If society does not want to admit to the problem, there is no where to go. And there may have been people who knew but did not want to speak out because they were afraid to, or afraid of rocking the boat, of losing some opportunity or connection they had in the horse world. Or perhaps, they just simply did not want to be bothered. Too messy. Not their problem.
People do not like to think these kinds of things happen in their circles. So it is hard for them to admit it, to see it. Easier to come up with some story to explain it away or make it OK. Easier to accept if seen as happening in circles outside their own.
Edited to add: this blog post is thoughtful and thought provoking as to the silence that surrounds sexual molestation and assault.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/guila-benchimol/we-all-helped-build-the-wall-of-silence-around-victims-of-sexual-assault_a_23304277/
Sunflower, if you read the sum of my posts on this thread (and the posts prior that prompted them), you would understand that I am NOT victim blaming. In fact, I posted very close to what you did.
And sometimes (most times?) when you are trying to root out a sex offender NO ONE wants to hear.
My family dealt with this regarding a child sex offender that latched on to my grandmother financially/socially. It was horrific to witness. He was convicted and incarcerated in the time she knew him. Nothing shook her belief they were in love and it had all been blown out of proportion. The neighbors didn’t want to discuss it and would only go on about how he’d ‘paid his debt to society’ and ‘how good he was to (my grandmother)’ all while he siphoned off money, withheld her medication and played the long game to get her house. He failed at the last, but it was close. The police couldn’t help us intervene without her complaint because she was considered mentally sound, the neighbors wouldn’t intervene as he’d certainly been dripping poison in their ear about us. Whenever one of us raised the issue, neighbors would recoil as if we were the problem.
Years later it still infuriates me. From the outside, it is near impossible to under estimate the manipulation, the levels of deception involved and the willful blindness of those in the periphery. If you know something, decency means you have to do something. Its simply much more convenient not to know.
Willful blindness is a trait I had little patience with before this, let alone after. It is at the core of why these events go 'by the wayside.
Duh, my bad for misreading. And how horrible is it that there are so many of these? I know of a trainer who was in his 40s and had an inappropriate relationship with a girl who was 16 at the time, I believe. She had been one of the barn kids at my barn for many years before moving on to this new trainer (who had a wife and kids). Just despicable behavior.
Reading all of this makes me really grateful that I never had a male riding teacher.
I want to salute all the wonderful women who gave me riding lessons through the decades, and you know what? Not one of these wonderful women ever, ever, ever made an inappropriate advance towards me.
Same! I actually texted one of them yesterday and thanked her for being a good role model that helped me to only hear rumors, rather then live through these terrible experiences. I was always a working student, non horsey family, single mom, spent all day everyday at the barn, very motivated, always choose my own trainers. Luckily I always choose strong women. There was one summer I lived with my grandma up north and worked at a high end dressage barn after my aunt had begun to ride. The trainer was taking me to the barn and back home every day, at least a one hours drive, but she was a female and so was the BM. I don’t think my mom had any idea that this was even a concern. As I read this and the other stories, I am more and more aware of how I could have ended up in the wrong place very easily. I’d like to think I am a strong enough personality that I wouldn’t be a target, but I would not have pegged some of the pros that came out in this story to be one either.
I don’ think it is looks per se, I think it is vulnerability in some aspect of life that the predators can take advantage of.
Eh don’t assume all male coaches are molestors, and don’t assume that women aren’t capable of abuse.
I rode with a male coach from the time I was 14-20. He was a decent human being.
There’s one local barn that has a female coach who belittles her students, creates drama with her students, and starts rumours about anyone and everyone. One of her students leased one of our horses last summer, I pulled the horse because of the coach and invited the girl and her mom to come to our barn. The number of times I saw that girl in tears was heartbreaking. She ended up quitting because it was the only was to never have to see that woman again. I wouldn’t be surprised if the verbal abuse and the lies cause issues down the line with teachers, coaches for other sports, bosses, etc.
I know I feel an additional layer of safety from sexual assault/abuse when a coach is female. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen and it doesn’t mean you are safe from other types of abuse as you noted. The ways people can be awful and cruel and hateful to each other are endless…
No. Vulnerability has nothing to do with it. Looks have nothing to do with it. Circumstance has nothing to do with it.
It ALL comes back to the vileness of the predator.
Certainly predators often have a certain profile that they seek out. Perhaps they seek a particular physical type or someone with an emotional background that makes them easy to manipulate. But plenty of strong, independent women have been abused. Women of all types, shapes, physical characteristics, backgrounds, strengths and weaknesses.
The danger in saying that the abuse is due to vulnerability or looks or environment or opportunity puts at least a portion of the burden of blame on the victim. “If I weren’t so insecure I wouldn’t have been raped.” “If I’d been uglier I wouldn’t have been molested.” “If I hadn’t gotten drunk at that party I wouldn’t have been attacked.” No. It all goes back to the actions of the predator. Any decent human being doesn’t see an insecure or beautiful or drunk person and think about how they can take advantage of the situation.
The victim may have certain attributes that the predator stalks, but the abuse didn’t happen because the women were(insert characteristic here). The abuse happened because the predator is an evil SOB. Pure and simple.
As a society, we have created coping mechanisms to help women stay safe. They increase our chances of safety, but they do not guarantee it. Not getting too drunk at parties, staying in safe areas, not sending our children and teens out unsupervised - all excellent practices that we shouldn’t have to do. But unfortunately, we’ve turned those coping mechanisms into blaming mechanisms. “Well, if she’d not had that extra drink she would’ve been able to fend him off.” “Well if she hadn’t walked across the parking lot looking weak and unaware, she wouldn’t have been snatched.” “Well if she hadn’t have dressed like a hooker, she’d be fine.” Behavior modification or the practice of certain principles are survival tactics. Not a burdens of responsibility.
For every closely supervised child, there’s another child being abused by the favorite uncle - such a favorite uncle that no one believes the child. For every modestly dressed woman, there’s a nun who’s raped. For every strong and confident woman with no perceived vulnerabilities, there’s a FBI agent taken captive and assaulted by a serial killer. For every Hollywood beauty, there’s a woman of more average looks attacked by a serial rapist.
Except from the perspective of the evil SOB, who may like young impressionable girls or blue-eyed women who remind them of their ex or strong personalities or just whatever women happens to walk past at when the urge strikes, any attribute about a woman has nothing to do with why she as abused. It’s ALL based on the predator’s inexcusable behavior and mental issues.
If one changes the crime to murder or replaces the abuse victim with a puppy, it becomes quite clear how convoluted our society’s perception of sexual abuse is.
“As a society, we have created coping mechanisms to help women stay safe. They increase our chances of safety, but they do not guarantee it. Not getting too drunk at parties, staying in safe areas, not sending our children and teens out unsupervised - all excellent practices that we shouldn’t have to do. But unfortunately, we’ve turned those coping mechanisms into blaming mechanisms. “Well, if she’d not had that extra drink she would’ve been able to fend him off.” “Well if she hadn’t walked across the parking lot looking weak and unaware, she wouldn’t have been snatched.” “Well if she hadn’t have dressed like a hooker, she’d be fine.” Behavior modification or the practice of certain principles are survival tactics. Not a burdens of responsibility.”
There are good people out there. I had a friend in college, my best friend’s best friend, too bad I didn’t see him for who he was. He drove me home one night after I had too much to drink. He made me drink water and take tylenol and waited until I fell asleep in my bed and then he left. All in the midst of a terrible boyfriend calling and arguing with me and wanting me to drive to pick him up. This guy was gold and I never saw it until too late.
My Kids have also taken care of drunk girls, at ages that are way too young for girls to be drunk. One had to physically sit against a door (he’s a big kid) to prevent another boy from coming in to bother her. My kids are very anti-alcohol, for now. Never say never is my motto. When you say never, you soon get knocked off that high horse.
The horse world, and many other walks, are apparently rife with #metoo. It’s still not talked about and I know it’s going on. I experienced it but was old enough and experienced enough (had already been taken advantage of) to rebut it at that point. I saw girls who weren’t and who were gaga over their BNTs and would probably do anything for them.
And I agree with the berating by women too. That also happens in all walks. But I too have been fortunate to have some amazing women to mentor and teach me in the pony club and dressage world. Just amazing.
I don’t have any issue with calling a spade a spade and stopping an award for someone who abused women.
@Mac123 I do agree with much of what you said, and I can see where myself saying that predators look for a vulnerability could be construed as blaming the victim and remove the conversation from what it should be on, the predator. That was not my intention. However, to say we have zero control over this is not empowering in any way either IMO. If there are zero ways to keep yourself safe, then we are all at the will of predators. Maybe we are, but I also think that the inner strength (i’m not sure if that’s the right way to describe it, but I can’t come up with anything else right now) an individual presents can be a deterrent at least for some cases, albeit not all. I do know that I cannot control those people with issues that lead to this kind of abuse, so I look for an inner strength in myself to rely on. Maybe that’s naive, maybe that’s my own coping that is conditioned as you wrote (very possible), and perhaps you will say that we should not be discussing any “what do perpetrators look for” type of questions that distract from JW. I don’t know the answer, but this is a discussion and I think we all learn from having these discussions. You just re-opened my eyes again to something that I thought I was being open about. I do know that unfortunately for the girls abused by JW, he went beyond any limit or cue, and that is 100% his fault, which is why it so vital these types of conversations continue. Times are changing and in life and death, no one should get a pass for reality.
I do not assume that all male coaches sexually molest their students. However, if I had a daughter, or if I ever have a female grandchild, I would look for the best female coach I could find just because the danger IS out there. I would have the same worry about a son or grandson with a homosexual male coach. That does not mean that I automatically assume that something will happen. In the world today I would want to be there at the stable/lesson with a descendant of either sex just to make sure that no sexual, physical, mental or emotional abuse happens with coaches of any sex or sexual orientation. Mean and nasty people are in every population group.
As far as verbal abuse from female coaches? I had plenty of female coaches get after me because my riding was not up to their standards. One particularly stands out in my memory because of her dismissive and cutting comments. However this lady was the one that finally got me in the right direction with my riding. Yes, I was severely deflated, but she was RIGHT about my riding, and I became a much better rider because of her. If she were still alive I would go to her for a lesson to get my riding severely criticized and my riding ability dismissed just because I know she’d be right. Of course she praised people who rode to her standard, I just was never good enough to get praise from her. Shrug. Because of her I now do get riding teachers praise my riding even though I am crippled by MS, because of her caustic criticism I went from being just a passenger on a horse to being a rider and horsewoman.
This particular riding teacher was also the first person to ever tell me that something was wrong with my balance, 22 years before my MS was finally diagnosed after going to doctors for decades just to be told that nothing was wrong with me. She was not particularly kind about my lack of riding ability, but she was right.
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