I love when people claim that it was better in the ‘old days’ when “everyone knew how to ride and didn’t use gadgets”. In old pictures, I’ve seen more double bridles and pelhams on horses than I’ve seen snaffles. Plus, older style courses were designed for a more forward galloping pace, not the go and whoa courses that are more common now.
Did you get the impression from my post that I agreed with this trainer’s methods and her understanding of how to use bits? Reading comprehension test:
meupatdoes was being
a.) supportive of trainer’s premise?
or
b.) unsupportive of trainer’s premise?
Figure out what side I’m on before you lay into me, mmkay?
Thought I made that fairly clear…
Wait, thinking you’re NOT supposed to “just let the bit do the training” means I don’t know anything about how they are supposed to work? So I’m wrong and you SHOULD just let the bit do the training? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
So let’s clarify again:
If meupatdoes DOESN’T agree that a mikmar should be used “to just let the bit do the training,” this means she:
a.) doesn’t know anything about how these bits are supposed to work
or
b.) perhaps does have an inking about how these bits are supposed to work, since you AREN’T supposed to “just let them do the training.”
[QUOTE=PoohLP;7574594]
but even with not knowing, you condemn them because you saw one bad trainer misuse one and your horses are fine in a snaffle. Frankly, that is ridiculous!*[/QUOTE]
My horses and all the remedial training projects I get handed to ride. Was I condemming the bit when I said if you are doing advanced enough work you have the street cred to use it? You interpreted that post as a unilateral condemnation of the bit?
Read the post again, was I condemning the BIT ITSELF or its use in a 2’6" lesson by an idiot who was telling students to “just let the bit do the training??”
And yet when I criticize that trainer, who by the way will get near one of my horses over my dead body, you go bananas at me…
How much of my posts did you actually understand before you flew off the handle?
I am not training students or horses to the type of work (higher level jumpers, for example) where this type of bit has been necessary. The average rider, no matter how great they may think they are, is really not riding technical enough tracks to require this hardware (or maybe everyone is showing the high A/Os and I missed it?). I stick with dressage and hunters, and personally regardless of discipline I think it’s possible to teach amateurs how to ride around the 3’6 and below, and certainly to teach intermediate adults in 2’6" lessons that I specifically referenced in my first post, without extensive hardware. Perhaps one day I will run into a horse that I just can’t get around the 2’6" without a big bit, but to be honest I haven’t met one yet.
But that’s probably because I don’t understand anything.
What exactly are you disagreeing with me about? Are you trying to convince me that intermediate riders SHOULD be taught the 2’6" in big bits???
While you may not have meant it as such, your post reads not that these bits aren’t appropriate for intermediate riders and not that this one trainer was misusing a bit that might have an appropriate use, but rather that you’ve never needed them, your trainers never have and by implication of the fact that the only person you have seen use them was clearly a rube, they are only used as short cuts by bad trainers. That might not have been your intention, and if that is the case, I apologize, but that was definitely the tone. It also was the tone of several other posts, which I also was responding to, as well as to the OP, but I didn’t quote every single person.
My point was that these bits were designed by people who put a lot of thought into how bits work and how horses go and they designed them with particular issues and purposes in mind. I doubt there is a single one that is intended to “be a mack truck.” Trainers who use them as such should be avoided. Absent an obvious display of idiocy such as you witnessed, however, I would not simply assume that just because a trainer used a “big bit” they were:
a. unable to teach a horse/rider to go in a snaffle; or
b. Relying on the bit as a crutch
Likewise, there are plenty of hunter trainers who hide some pretty nasty “snaffle” mouthpieces behind a dee ring. Even though a double twisted wire is still a snaffle, I’d put a mikmar bit on my horse 10 times over before I put that snaffle in my horse’s mouth and I would avoid that trainer just as much as I would avoid one who misused a “big” bit.
OP asked about Mikmar bits but has yet to say which bits she wants to know about and there are dozens of different Mikmar bits. Her original questions was basically, “what is up with these bits?” She later expanded it more or less to “My trainer (or exercises rider? can’t remember) wanted to use this bit on my horse and I didn’t see why she would so I said no, and she was unhappy about it but respected my wishes, but I still don’t get why she would want to.” After explaining that there are a wide variety of uses for these bits, I made what I thought was a very reasonable suggestion that if her trainer is suggesting using one of these bits (and we don’t know which one, which leads me to think OP either doesn’t know there are many types or doesn’t know which one it is) that she ask why. The trainers answer will give her a pretty good indication as to whether she has a good understanding and reason for using the bit or not.
I was sitting in a Chris Kappler clinic and when asked about bits said that the bits are for the rider not the horse.
Chris is obviously a very accomplished rider who is tall and has lots of leverage. He might be able to get the job done in a snaffle on Horse A. A tiny 13 year old child who weighs 80 lbs sopping wet with little arm strength might need a Mikmar (pelham, twisted wire etc) on Horse A.
A good trainer will know their horses and their riders and bit them appropriately. There are some 2’-2’6" riders who never touch the reins. In cases like that, maybe it is appropriate to have a Mikmar in the horse’s mouth if the horse knows it is there and behaves as such.
There are many of the sainted school horses who behave differently with some tools. There are horses who you have to carry a crop with but never have to use it. Some react to bits like that as well.
Unless you’re riding at a very high professional level, it’s probably not doing anyone any good to criticize what you saw in a schooling ring and if you’re a professional at that level, you’re probably too busy to criticize or even notice what’s going on too.
Most of the newer Mikmars you’d see at shows have a traditional side piece so unless you saw them bridle the horse, you’d never know what was in the horse’s mouth. (Guessing this was a hunter rider you saw doing the 2’-2’6")
I’ve ridden in Mikmars with a few different horses. I’d say that overall I really like the bits. It allowed me the ability to leave them alone. They were much more responsive to my cues and they were both much better balanced with the Mikmars in.
[QUOTE=hype;7574832]
Most of the newer Mikmars you’d see at shows have a traditional side piece so unless you saw them bridle the horse, you’d never know what was in the horse’s mouth. (Guessing this was a hunter rider you saw doing the 2’-2’6")[/QUOTE]
In my original post, I posted a link to the exact bit I am talking about.
Go back and click on it and you tell me if that looks like it has a “traditional side piece” or not.
Good Lord, how on earth could I look at such a distinctive design and be able to tell instantly that it was a Mikmar? Must be my lack of understanding of bits, cited earlier.
I also explained that the setting was a intermediate adult 2’6" group lesson. (HI. NOT A HORSESHOW.)
Why are you “guessing” about the rider and constructing an entire horseshow in your mind when I have already given the information? Does anyone read posts before jumping in anymore?
Probably safe to say that a large majority of riders don’t need them. Certainly not for colts or the hands of beginners.
However, when advanced, well educated riders jump bigger fences with twice the pace ( at least) of the 2’-2’6" intermediate riders? They can make an educated choice in bits depending on their horse’s needs. That might not be a big thick rubber snaffle or loose ring.
Probably a mistake that can limit what you can learn about riding to make assumptions and generalities about what you think " everybody" does or does not do. Especially when you can only see sidepieces and not the part in the mouth.
The Chris Kappler statement is echoed by most clinicians working with mixed level groups, less is more and learn the rest of the aids better instead of going to more bit. HOWEVER, that statement does not really mean he never uses anything but a mild snaffle over the big sticks or schooling at home or in the show schooling rings on off days. Neither do his private clients.
I used a Comfort snaffle on my teenaged, very experienced Hunter mare who could get heavy around corners late in courses. It gave just a hint of lift and she loved the tongue relief afforded by the wide, low ported, unjointed mouthpiece that didn’t press on her tongue and stayed still in her mouth. The very features some refer to as torture actually are designed to be more comfortable in the mouth.
However, it was a standard dee sidepiece with no hooks so the casual observer would assume it was just the mildest of jointed snaffles she was going so well in with so little effort and could then speak to the effectiveness of the plain snaffle.
Let’s revisit my exact words:
^Let me just say that I think people who are doing seriously advanced work have the street cred and demonstrated results to back up their choices.
A group of adults jumping 2’ - 2’6" in a weekly group lesson?
COME ON.
Teachers should be able to teach average amateurs on average horses to do average work in an average bit. When the horse and rider are doing advanced work we can talk, but IMO it is ridiculous to need that much help from equipment to trot and canter around basic courses.
Most riders do not have the resume, nor are they doing the type of work, to warrant use of this kind of bit.
I’m sorry if you found that unclear.
[QUOTE=findeight;7574912]
Especially when you can only see sidepieces and not the part in the mouth.[/QUOTE]
Yep.
COULD ONLY SEE THE SIDE PIECES.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7574927]
Let’s revisit my exact words:
I’m sorry if you found that unclear.[/QUOTE]
You hadn’t written your second post when I was typing my response to your first post. So yes, your original post was unclear.
While most of the sentiment of your second post is agreeable enough, I don’t necessarily agree with the vehemence of it. Again, I will reiterate that a trainer may have a reason to use a bit on a horse that only does lower jumps for training purposes. Maybe, it is a horse that gets very heavy on course in a snaffle, so the trainer works it occasionally in a leverage bit to encourage the horse to get off the hands and more onto their back ends. No, the bit alone will not do this, but in an educated trainer it may help the horse to learn the lesson more quickly and with less drama than a simple snaffle. Maybe the trainer likes the lighter feeling in their hand produced by proper use of some of these bits. Maybe the trainer believes the design of the mouthpiece allows for a softer feel for the horse and rider. Maybe the trainer uses it for training, but has their less educated student use a snaffle or a pelham or whatever. Lots of bits, lots of reasons. That is all I’m saying.
But I HAD posted my second post before you posted yours, and before you took me to task a SECOND TIME for my “tone.”
[QUOTE=PoohLP;7574988]
While most of the sentiment of your second post is agreeable enough, I don’t necessarily agree with the vehemence of it. [/QUOTE]
You’re telling ME about vehemence? You flew off the handle at me in a multiparagraph rant, complete with exclamation points and repeated personal insults about me apparently not knowing anything, after a post in which I briefly described one idiotic trainer teaching one intermediate adult group lesson, which I finished off with a “laughing” emoticon.
And then that apparently wasn’t enough, so you lectured me a second time, about “tone.”
Hmm.
In life, (as with bitting), it is usually better to develop a full understanding of relevant concepts before going whole hog with the big guns. No need to go right to the combination mikmar when the situation really only calls for a snaffe, right?
[QUOTE=stolen virtue;7574633]
Thanks everyone. I am old fashioned as well. I have seen several horses go up in a pelham so I am a bit concerned, however, my horse goes just fine in a 3 peice snaffle.
I really don’t think all of these horses need or really should be in a mikmar, but I just wanted to know how these bits worked and some opinions. I wouldn’t think they are allowed in hunters.[/QUOTE]
A short shank or circle shank Mikmar is milder than a pelham. And yes, I do jump my horse in one. He likes the way the mouthpiece sits in his mouth and he’s soft and easy to ride in it. I have light hands and he has a soft mouth. It’s not about harshness or muscling him into something. It’s about what keeps his mouth quiet.
My other horse goes in a peewee snaffle. It’s a thin sweet iron mullen mouth.
I use bits that my horses like, not what’s fashionable.
Likewise, there are plenty of hunter trainers who hide some pretty nasty “snaffle” mouthpieces behind a dee ring. Even though a double twisted wire is still a snaffle, I’d put a mikmar bit on my horse 10 times over before I put that snaffle in my horse’s mouth and I would avoid that trainer just as much as I would avoid one who misused a “big” bit.
Exactly! Some of the “hunters” at shows use bits that are more severe than anything I see out foxhunting: segundas, twisted wires, etc. I agree that it’s crazy to ride in something that harsh unless there’s a specific reason. However, most of the people on this thread who are so vehemently anti mikmar have never used one. Try it before bashing it as an instrument of torture and give us all some credit for knowing how to bit our own horses.
The Mikmar is not a “mack truck” of a bit in and of itself. Any bit can be harsh if it’s used wrong. Really, the old single jointed snaffles that we all thought were so mild can be quite hard on a horse’s palate, for example. I see people riding in gag bits/elevators on the bottom ring all the time . . . much harsher than my Mikmar circle shank or short shank.
If you have to use a Mikmar, are thinking of using a Mikmar, or want to use a Mikmar…
You probably should consider another sport all together.
Perhaps one that doesn’t include an animal.
[QUOTE=WillowB;7575015]
If you have to use a Mikmar, are thinking of using a Mikmar, or want to use a Mikmar…
You probably should consider another sport all together.
Perhaps one that doesn’t include an animal.[/QUOTE]
Really??? Have you ever used one? What qualifies YOU to make that kind of judgment?
I didn’t take you to task for your tone, I simply explained how I interpreted it and why I disagreed with what I felt you were projecting. I also said that if I had read that wrong, I apologized. And no, I had not read your second post until after I posted my first response. When you referred it, I then read it, told you that I hadn’t seen it before I posted my first response and then said I agreed with the sentiment, but not the vehemence, by which I further explained that I believe there are times when some mikmar bits might be appropriate in situations you thought they absolutely never could be.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7574999]Hmm.
In life, (as with bitting), it is usually better to develop a full understanding of relevant concepts before going whole hog with the big guns. No need to go right to the combination mikmar when the situation really only calls for a snaffe, right?[/QUOTE]
This is good advice everyone should follow. Remember though that sometimes, when you know how, you can get a better response using less force with a big bits rather than constant pressure in a snaffle. 
[QUOTE=Bogie;7575018]
Really??? Have you ever used one? What qualifies YOU to make that kind of judgment?[/QUOTE]
I have used one… and I cringe when I think about it.
Same horse I was instructed to use it on, was going beautifully in a snaffle with someone else. Obviously, due to my crap hands, I could not get the desired result when I used a lesser bit.
I see this happen countless times with ‘big’ bits like this.
Do you disagree that if people had better hands, or a horse respected your aids more- that you could get the same result with a friendlier bit?
[QUOTE=Bogie;7575018]
Really??? Have you ever used one? What qualifies YOU to make that kind of judgment?[/QUOTE]
Just from a logic perspective, I’m not really understanding this requirement that one USE a piece of equipment before deciding it’s not your cup of tea.
I mean, have you ever used a cattle prod on your horse to get it into a trailer?
No?
Well then I guess you aren’t qualified to consider that practice inhumane!
(And just in case this thread wants to continue in its giant reading comprehension fail, NO, I am NOT equating “use of a mikmar” with “use of a cattle prod.” OK everyone? So put that little rant down before you even start. I am simply questioning the logic of demanding that people use whatever equipment they think is abusive before they can be allowed to consider it abusive. I mean, take that little requirement to it’s logical conclusion…)
Some people have never used a set of draw reins because from the outset they just don’t agree with their use. I have no problem with them having that opinion(and I have on rare occasions used draw reins). For my part I have never used a double twisted wire and I don’t consider them to be an acceptable choice of bit. Sorry, not going to use one JUST so I can say, “I don’t consider this to be an acceptable choice of bit.” Different people will draw their opinions where they will draw them, but an imputed requirement that everyone USE all of the potentially abusive equipment before deciding NOT to use it doesn’t make any sense.
[QUOTE=WillowB;7575024]
I have used one… and I cringe when I think about it.
Same horse I was instructed to use it on, was going beautifully in a snaffle with someone else. Obviously, due to my crap hands, I could not get the desired result when I used a lesser bit.
I see this happen countless times with ‘big’ bits like this.
Do you disagree that if people had better hands, or a horse respected your aids more- that you could get the same result with a friendlier bit?[/QUOTE]
Were you riding in a circle shank or a combo bit?
It sounds like you didn’t have the skill set that this particular horse required to go well in a snaffle. It might have nothing to do with your hands and everything to do with how you use your leg, seat and back. I would agree with you that a combo bit, with a nose rope, can be a lot of bit and shouldn’t be used by someone who is using it as a crutch. But frankly, your statement above is pretty offensive.
I can certainly ride my horse in a snaffle – but he prefers the mikmar mouthpiece. Why should I ride him in a snaffle if he doesn’t like it? Should I only ride in a loose ring snaffle if my horse prefers a fixed ring or a full cheek?
The horse that likes the Mikmar I can ride off a neck strap – walk, trot, canter, jump a small course. He’s plenty responsive to a half halt; just bringing your body back will cause him to check slightly. But not in the hunt field.
Let’s talk about context. Have you ever foxhunted? Or are you riding in an arena?
How you bit depends a lot on what you do. If you haven’t ever hunted, I can tell you that it’s a whole different ballgame out there when you are galloping in a group – whether you are on an ex-racehorse or a draft cross (I hunt both), there’s a lot of energy and momentum. You do NOT want to be hanging on your horse’s mouth all the time; you want to be able to be give subtle aids and yet have a quick response. You need to check quickly to avoid a hound, or hold up hard if the rider in front of you stops at a fence. If you’re whipping you need to follow a hound at an instant.
With a Mickmar or a Kimberwicke or a Pelhalm I can ride with very light contact, I can give my horse his head and let him find that fifth leg when we’re out galloping or jumping, but he’s beautifully responsive when I need it and I’m not in his face 95% of the ride.
Would it make you feel better if you also knew that I hunt my horse in a waterford snaffle at times, or in a Kimberwicke? Because I do. I’ve thought about riding him in a double bridle, too.
A snaffle is not the only bit that is “appropriate”; just look how many horses jumped around Badminton in one – or for that matter at any novice rated event.
My last hunt horse I rode bitless, so I don’t think I need a “big” bit because of my lack of skill as a rider. Yup, I hunted first flight using a sidepull bridle because that’s what he liked and I had plenty of control using it.
Don’t tell me or anyone else that we should take up another sport – preferably without animals – because you don’t have the skill to ride a horse in a bit that allows more subtle communication.
1 Like
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7575026]
Just from a logic perspective, I’m not really understanding this requirement that one USE a piece of equipment before deciding it’s not your cup of tea.[/QUOTE]
LOL. I actually agree with this. However, I do think that before someone blanket says that anyone who uses it should be drummed out of horses, they should, at a minimum learn how something works and the intent behind it. Then we can have a conversation.
For instance, if my horse is scared to get on a trailer, do I think that making the experience more painful and fearful (ie, using a cattle prod) will encourage him to get on faster? Well, it might work this time and it might work the next time, but I’m willing to bet by time number three that he won’t get within sight of the trailer, so this may not be the best training method. It also is based on the premise not of teaching the horse to yield to pressure, but of teaching the horse to yield to pain.
In general, I think many people will agree that training methods that depend on “pain” are not highly desirable, and begin to move towards inhumane.
However, if I have a horse that progressively gets heavier and heavier on course so that I am constantly having to bump him off my hands, bump him off my hands, and use stronger and stranger half halts, I could continue to use the snaffle and go through this, or I could put him in a slow twist or a twisted wire snaffle and use the discomfort or pain on his tongue to back him off, or I could put my horse in a mikmar gag with a nice, humane mouthpice backed up by a bit of leverage that allows me communicate quickly and effectively, “hey,get off my hands jacko” then get the heck out of his mouth to help him learn that he is expected to carry himself and it isn’t comfortable or acceptable to just hang on my hands. I leave it to the individual to decide which option is more humane. I know which the horses I have known prefer.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7575026]
Just from a logic perspective, I’m not really understanding this requirement that one USE a piece of equipment before deciding it’s not your cup of tea.
Some people have never used a set of draw reins because from the outset they just don’t agree with their use. I have no problem with them having that opinion(and I have on rare occasions used draw reins). For my part I have never used a double twisted wire and I don’t consider them to be an acceptable choice of bit. Sorry, not going to use one JUST so I can say, “I don’t consider this to be an acceptable choice of bit.” Different people will draw their opinions where they will draw them, but an imputed requirement that everyone USE all of the potentially abusive equipment before deciding NOT to use it doesn’t make any sense.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I don’t like to see draw reins used because so many people use them incorrectly. If YOU choose to use them, and you understand how they should be ridden in, then fine. Same deal with a Mikmar. If you don’t want to use one, don’t. I won’t tell you that you need to. I don’t think that most horses need draw reins; you can accomplish MOST of what you need by riding correctly.
I have used draw reins on one horse at the advice of my trainer and yes, they accomplished what needed to be done in a short amount of time. Would I throw them on every horse? Heck no.
So how about this? You don’t use a Mickmar, I won’t use draw reins. But let’s not make blanket statements about what other people should/shouldn’t use on their horses.
[QUOTE=Bogie;7575065]
Personally, I don’t like to see draw reins used because so many people use them incorrectly. If YOU choose to use them, and you understand how they should be ridden in, then fine. Same deal with a Mikmar. If you don’t want to use one, don’t. I won’t tell you that you need to. I don’t think that most horses need draw reins; you can accomplish MOST of what you need by riding correctly.
I have used draw reins on one horse at the advice of my trainer and yes, they accomplished what needed to be done in a short amount of time. Would I throw them on every horse? Heck no.
So how about this? You don’t use a Mickmar, I won’t use draw reins. But let’s not make blanket statements about what other people should/shouldn’t use on their horses.[/QUOTE]
You know, moral relativism v. tolerance is a topic I think about quite a bit, but I do think, at some elemental level, it’s not just “everybody has their own opinion.”
Sometimes, it’s NOT all relative, and you can, in fact, make a call.
I think, for example, that I can make a call that soring TWHs is no bueno. If you want to make a well reasoned argument for why I shouldn’t make that call, I’ll consider it, and you may win me over, but chances are small.
As for this thread, here’s my call:
I don’t think intermediate level adults jumping in 2’6" lessons should be taught to use Mikmars as “mack trucks.” In fact, just viewing that one lesson would make me write off that trainer as a trainer. Yep! That’s my call on this.
Another call:
I think that most riders do not ride at the level, or negotiate the sort of tracks, to remotely warrant that piece of equipment.
Am I willing to accept a great many different approaches, and that everyone does things differently? Sure.
But my willingness to accept that everyone does things differently does have its limits.
Everyone draws their line on a different part of the spectrum, and they might have their reasons for choosing that spot, and someone else may convince them to budge slightly with a well reasoned argument.
But somewhere between snaffle bits and soring a Walker, everybody does have to draw the line somewhere.
