[QUOTE=vxf111;6512507]
And the strangeness seems to breed the really bad problems (i.e. flipping the horse. That seemed to me NOT to be necessarilyu terrible riding skills or malintent but rather a rider who just didn’t KNOW how to ride a horse acting that way. If it was his own horse, preumably he’d have worked out how to deal with that before the competition). [/QUOTE]
Horse-flipping a la London is not a common occurrence in pentathlon. I’ve never seen it before. I have seen the same thing – a horse rearing and falling over at the start – on the race course (a number of times), in the start box of eventing, and, once, in the dressage ring. I’ve also seen it happen at the mounting block.
Unfortunately, there seem to be people who judge all pentathlon riding by the incident with the Korean rider. It made for dramatic photos and video, unlike the many nice moments in the riding competition.
I do think pentathlon rules should be changed to retire the horse after any fall of horse. That rider should not have been allowed to get back on the horse.
vxf11, all the pentathletes I know like – love, actually – riding. I assume we both watched the same Olympics video, but somehow, I didn’t see the Blair Witch Riding Project that you saw. There were a few bad rides. There were some tough horses. There were some less-than-optimal combinations. There was nothing that I haven’t seen in an AA jumper class at a big show – and those were presumably people on their own horses.[/QUOTE]
I think vxf111 has a perfectly valid point. I realize MP is near and dear to your heart, but most non-pentathlete riders aren’t seeing the sport the way you see it. If there were three or four bad rides, fine… Par for the course at your typical show. But when rider after rider comes in, bounces around on a horse’s back, leans back and hauls on their mouth, jabs them in the side with spurs, and runs them into fences, fall off numerous times after numerous refusals… that’s when it starts to become glaringly obvious that most of these athletes have absolutely NO business riding at this height and at Prelim speed. (VG Canadian and UK riders aside. ;))
That being said, I think the speed/height for these rounds is a big factor. It seemed like even the decent riders found it difficult to make the time. Taking a not-so-decent and possibly timid rider, putting them on an unfamiliar horse, and saying, “GO!” is a recipe for disaster. I’d like to think we’d get the same sort of shake-up in standings if the jumps were lower and the speed slowed, but there’s no way to tell unless it’s actually tested.
I don’t think the “bad” riders are bad people who have no concern for the horses’ well-being. I think what we’re seeing are riders who have inadequate riding backgrounds and have very little training under their belts in basic equitation. Since the objective is to get around clean and fast, there’s no penalty for riding like a crack monkey. Some horses can take a joke and ignore it, others can’t. But we shouldn’t be relying on the horses to make up for the riders’ lack of education. :no:
[As an aside, I know that many pentathletes come from a Tetrathlon/Pony Club background. But unfortunately I feel like we’re not seeing them at the high levels of competition, because 1) not every country has those sorts of programs, and 2) most of the great PC Tetrathletes aren’t good enough at the other phases to break through to the top.]
Additionally, it sounds like the various national Pentathlon training programs themselves are at fault. Riding is expensive, not everyone can afford it, especially cash-strapped Olympic sports like MP. Unless there’s a way to change that (like I said in a past post, possibly getting involved with PC and “trading” skills or asking for catch rides) to allow athletes to get more riding time in, we’re going to keep seeing the bad riding at the international level.
[QUOTE=JER;6512587]
Horse-flipping a la London is not a common occurrence in pentathlon. I’ve never seen it before. I have seen the same thing – a horse rearing and falling over at the start – on the race course (a number of times), in the start box of eventing, and, once, in the dressage ring. I’ve also seen it happen at the mounting block.
Unfortunately, there seem to be people who judge all pentathlon riding by the incident with the Korean rider. It made for dramatic photos and video, unlike the many nice moments in the riding competition.
I do think pentathlon rules should be changed to retire the horse after any fall of horse. That rider should not have been allowed to get back on the horse.[/QUOTE]
But these are all scenarios where the owner has control over the rider. It’s the whole ‘anyone in the pool could draw this horse’ and the pool having some totally ill equipped riders at that level which I find problematic. Sure, an accident could happen ANY TIME but most top level jockeys, events, dressage riders are capable of handling the horses they’re on. Sh*t still happens, but not because they lacked skills to deal with a strange horse.
[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;6513923]
I think vxf111 has a perfectly valid point. I realize MP is near and dear to your heart, but most non-pentathlete riders aren’t seeing the sport the way you see it. If there were three or four bad rides, fine… Par for the course at your typical show. But when rider after rider comes in, bounces around on a horse’s back, leans back and hauls on their mouth, jabs them in the side with spurs, and runs them into fences, fall off numerous times after numerous refusals… that’s when it starts to become glaringly obvious that most of these athletes have absolutely NO business riding at this height and at Prelim speed. (VG Canadian and UK riders aside. ;))
That being said, I think the speed/height for these rounds is a big factor. It seemed like even the decent riders found it difficult to make the time. Taking a not-so-decent and possibly timid rider, putting them on an unfamiliar horse, and saying, “GO!” is a recipe for disaster. I’d like to think we’d get the same sort of shake-up in standings if the jumps were lower and the speed slowed, but there’s no way to tell unless it’s actually tested.
I don’t think the “bad” riders are bad people who have no concern for the horses’ well-being. I think what we’re seeing are riders who have inadequate riding backgrounds and have very little training under their belts in basic equitation. Since the objective is to get around clean and fast, there’s no penalty for riding like a crack monkey. Some horses can take a joke and ignore it, others can’t. But we shouldn’t be relying on the horses to make up for the riders’ lack of education. :no:
[As an aside, I know that many pentathletes come from a Tetrathlon/Pony Club background. But unfortunately I feel like we’re not seeing them at the high levels of competition, because 1) not every country has those sorts of programs, and 2) most of the great PC Tetrathletes aren’t good enough at the other phases to break through to the top.]
Additionally, it sounds like the various national Pentathlon training programs themselves are at fault. Riding is expensive, not everyone can afford it, especially cash-strapped Olympic sports like MP. Unless there’s a way to change that (like I said in a past post, possibly getting involved with PC and “trading” skills or asking for catch rides) to allow athletes to get more riding time in, we’re going to keep seeing the bad riding at the international level. :([/QUOTE]
I quoted your whole post as you just say it all, and it needs to be repeated.
It seems like most of the top level Pentathaletes are just doing the riding part because they have to, with no real love for horses & riding. It is just something they have to check off.
I am actually totally surprised that are top riders in the world, can’t remount after a fall in eventing, or jumpers, and continue, but these seat of the pants riders can Where is the lawsuit waiting to happen on that?
Yes, riding is expensive, but if they were really interested, there are lots of ways for them to gain experience.
As a breeder, if they were willing to be dedicated to me and my program, I would definitely put them on my sales horses, and pay for their lessons, even show fees. It could be a win/win situation, and I am sure there are many like me.
I have said that before, but no one beating a path to my door for riding time & help.
I am actually totally surprised that are top riders in the world, can’t remount after a fall in eventing, or jumpers, and continue, but these seat of the pants riders can Where is the lawsuit waiting to happen on that? [/QUOTE]
I was shocked by that aspect, too. Not to mention that the poor horse that flipped in that video was (presumably) sent out to jump around without any kind of vet check.
[QUOTE=MHM;6517371]
I was shocked by that aspect, too. Not to mention that the poor horse that flipped in that video was (presumably) sent out to jump around without any kind of vet check.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is a lawsuit waiting to happen for both horse and rider. :no:
I like the sport - in theory - but the execution seems too problematic. Is there a way to make it work? Perhaps “field soldier test” aside, there’s something to be said for a truly well-rounded athlete, whose skills extend beyond just raw physical sports like running and swimming. I do see the cycling angle, and that already goes on, but definitely deflates my interest at the Olympic level.
Could teams train and compete with their own horses, so that even if not everyone qualifies, you don’t end up with twice the number of needed horse at an event? (eg A team of 4 has 7 horses they train on, brings 2 to a qualifying event).
I think connecting the dots between riders and trainers/breeders/horses could be better explored. If I had the resources, I would be proud to sponsor and support the development of an MP athlete, IF they were willing to make a minimum commitment to the equestrian phase, whether by training 2-3/wk, or by spending concentrated time on improving skills (all horses all the time for 2-3mos say with a more lax maintenance sched the rest of the year.)
And certainly some rule changes! The equestrian (jumping) phase really comes across as an undisciplined free-for-all. Limit number of refusals. Disqualify falls. Why not have a “cavalry test” unique to the sport? It really doesn’t need to be show jumping on crack. Could it be more like a dressage test with a few jumps? More emphasis on testing horsemanship and skill than surviving.
They must have insane schedules, but things need to be better managed so that athletes and horses reach the Olympics with dignity and inspire the admiration of work-a-day riders as well as runners.
What’s the laundry list the MP really needs to get it right?
I like the sport - in theory - but the execution seems too problematic.
And certainly some rule changes! The equestrian (jumping) phase really comes across as an undisciplined free-for-all. Limit number of refusals. Disqualify falls. Why not have a “cavalry test” unique to the sport? It really doesn’t need to be show jumping on crack. Could it be more like a dressage test with a few jumps? More emphasis on testing horsemanship and skill than surviving.
What’s the laundry list the MP really needs to get it right?[/QUOTE]
Can MP be saved? It IS being saved, because most of the participants and organizers don’t see a problem! They are not horse people. They probably actually like all of the penalties, as it shifts the competitors order around. They seem to have blinders on, but definitely don’t think they have a problem.
They are NOT looking to eliminate competitors.
Until animal welfare people really get involved, nothing will change, and most of those groups won’t be interested, as MP is too small a stage to pump up donations.
I finally got a chance to watch more of the video from London, rather than just a few short clips. All I can say is:
Wow, most of those horses were tremendously good sports about the whole thing! I hope every grocery store in a ten mile radius had a run on carrots that week. Those horses deserved them. :yes:
The email address for Union International de Pentathlon Moderne (UIPM) is uipm@pentathlon.org . There’s no direct email for the President, unfortunately.
I was under the impression that MP was ending as an Olympic sport, mostly because it is expensive to host and making room for new sports. Anyone have any info about that?
[QUOTE=Haven’s Edge;6520221]
I was under the impression that MP was ending as an Olympic sport, mostly because it is expensive to host and making room for new sports. Anyone have any info about that?[/QUOTE]
The vote is secret. No one ever knows what’s in/out until the announcement or what was on the cusp.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6517281]
It seems like most of the top level Pentathaletes are just doing the riding part because they have to, with no real love for horses & riding. It is just something they have to check off.[/QUOTE]
You don’t know any top level pentathletes.
The one-fall-and-you’re-out rule isn’t universal. For example, British Eventing rules allow for remounting after a fall. This is because their studies determined that the data collected on falls does not support the one-fall rule. Other horse sports on the national levels allow remounting as well.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6517281] As a breeder, if they were willing to be dedicated to me and my program, I would definitely put them on my sales horses, and pay for their lessons, even show fees. It could be a win/win situation, and I am sure there are many like me.
I have said that before, but no one beating a path to my door for riding time & help.[/QUOTE]
Have you contacted USA Pentathlon about this? Have you contacted pentathletes as well? Otherwise, how would any pentathletes know that you’ve made this generous offer?
The sport is working just fine. 25,000 spectators had a great time watching it at the Olympics.
There were, according to someone who had one of the top scores in the riding, about 5 or 6 ‘bad’ rides out of 36 in London. One of the reasons for this is that many of these women work very hard at their riding.
There were 4 falls in London, IIRC. Two of the fallers were not good riders. The other two are very good riders. One (an excellent rider) slid off onto her feet after a dirty stop.
There were a lot of rails but that’s something that’s bound to happen with the horses that are appropriate choices for pentathlon. A super-careful jumper is not an appropriate choice. The right horse is more of an eventer type, honest to the fences but values going forward over leaving every pole up. I think this is something that everyone needs to understand.
JER,
I tend to agree with you that the riding overall was not as bad as I would expect based on the handwringing on this thread. I do think that it needs to improve though and to do that you need to both (1) provide an incentive for the competitors to need to improve their riding and (2) make improving the riding feasible for the majority of the competitors.
To accomplish #1, I think you do need to punish refusals or falls more. It might catch out some of the better riders but it would create more of an incentive to do your best to avoid the major problems, which will only improve the riding.
To accomplish #2, I really believe that you have to lower the fences to 3 foot. The better riders will still stand out, but that would expand both the pool of packers available for use at competitions (there are more 3 foot packers than 3’6" plus packers) and expand the competitors’ access to practice time and lessons. If you don’t own your own horse, it would be far easier to find a lesson program that will let you practice at 2’6" to 3’ on a lesson horse than one that will give you access to a horse that can teach someone at higher heights.
I also feel that they need to be quicker to pull a horse that’s not working out or a horse that has a particularly bad go with an earlier rider.
If they had max fences for WC finals and World Championships and the other major quaifyers, the weaker riders would never get to the Olympics in the first place.
Be careful what you wish for - the animal rights activists are no joke and if you sick them onto MP it would be the thin edge of the wedge regarding all horse sports… I would suggest, rather than spewing here, that concerned people seek out the really needy horses and abusers through already legitimate organizations, and send your money and help there. How about thebrooke.org ?
I happen to think the Pentathlon should be changed to remove horse back riding. Its not fair to the horse, a living breathing creature.
“Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and once it has done so, he/she will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.”
I doubt many of these pantathletes have embraced the grand passion – seems more like they attempt to acquire the minimal skills necessary to complete their sport.
Lets reserve horses for those who have a real passion, and desire to understand horses, and be a better rider.
To accomplish #1, I think you do need to punish refusals or falls more. It might catch out some of the better riders but it would create more of an incentive to do your best to avoid the major problems, which will only improve the riding.[/QUOTE]
I think the best way to raise the standard of riding is to make the riding phase more influential to the overall result of the competition. This is what happened at the Olympics. The horses were capable – but not always easy – and the course had to be ridden correctly.
Falls themselves are not heavily penalized but the accompanying time faults are enough to knock you out of the running for the day. And a fall should have that effect.
Stops are different than in regular riding. You get two tries at a fence, then you move on if you haven’t jumped it. Because you get no points for that obstacle, you won’t be able to make up for the loss.
The penalties could be higher, I agree, and I know some riders and coaches also feel this way.
At most international/world cup events, the jumps are more in the 3’ - 3’3" range. This is what the pool of horses can handle. You can go through YouTube and see WCs where the jumps are under 3’.
Everyone knew the Olympics were going to be maxed out. The Olympics is the big show in pentathlon; England is strong in riding and has an excellent pool of horses.
Also, dumbing down isn’t necessarily the answer. This video shows the pentathlon riding course in the 1984 Olympics. These guys can really ride.
Yes, but this will also require some rule changing as there are criteria for switching out horses.
You’ve hit upon an interesting point, except that this isn’t how the weaker riders get to the Olympics.
‘Olympic tourists’, as they are called, are the no-hopers who qualify for the Olympics due to where they live rather than by their qualifications. In eventing, Argentina won the right via the Pan Ams to field a team but did not have one single rider who could meet the Olympic qualifying standard. Australia, meanwhile, had several teams’ worth of riders who made the standard but failed to qualify (the normal way) to field a team as their other continental spots were already filled by NZ and Japan.
In pentathlon, there were 36 places in the Olympics for men and women, with a limit of two places per country for each gender. Because the Olympics was conceived as a festival of nationals, continental qualifiers awarded some of those places to athletes who were nowhere near the top 36 in the world. This ensured that the world #7 stayed home (two others from her country were ranked ahead of her) and the world #147 – that terrible rider from Japan – was in London. The Korean athlete wasn’t in the top 50.
This problem isn’t limited to pentathlon, it’s a problem inherent in the Olympics. Many sports have a less competitive field than your average world cup event.
In pentathlon, riders like the Korean and Japanese would most likely not make it into the finals of a world cup competition. The qualification rounds have no riding phase, and if you don’t finish in the top half or third of the field, you don’t go on to the final. Thus, it would be unlikely that you’d see them riding at all. This cuts both ways, of course, because it encourages them to work on their other sports – rather than riding – to improve their chances of getting through to a final.
Where is the lawsuit waiting to happen on that?