Money or nothing

[Fun_Size]

YEP this is where I’m at. I stopped in 2015 when I had my son, and now that I’m back all I can do is look around and say “WTF? No seriously WTF?” The green mare I purchased for $40k in 2011 would be twice that now. Which I’m not doing. A WSHJA 4 day OUTREACH show is $4k? What? And we’re expected to do that regularly? Between my husband and I we make serious income, and we’re looking at these numbers and what ELSE we could do with that money … ($30k year? I’m getting a house remodel and a bad ass backyard!)…I just can’t.

Years ago just paying full board and training and coming along to a couple shows / year made you part of the barn family. Apparently that’s not the case anymore. That makes me sad.

[Ponyplusaninch]

There are some things down in GA from a training and boarding perspective I do not miss, but YES, I miss the range and variety of shows! The local shows get held at the same venues as the A shows, and it’s great. I love that GHJA separates also separates “local” circuit awards vs. the A circuit awards.

Where I’m at now, this isn’t as common. I’m at my first B show in years and loving it and wanting more of them in my area. It’s tough because the local shows that do exist are at facilities that aren’t well-maintained. So if you want good footing, good management, etc. you have to be willing to pay for the 5 day A show.

[BLBGP]

Wait. Horses that won’t place in the hack or over fences and don’t have a change are 50k now?

[phoenixrises]

If they’re kind, take a joke and are same away and home, yep. And he was slightly less than that but if he’d had the change then he would have been 50-60. He’s a solid 3’ horse who can make the lines but doesn’t always jump a 10.

Him with a more consistent jump and a piece of the hack? 100k+ easy

[vxf111]

If they will do the job for a child or amateur, will land the leads, are reasonably sound and easy to maintain, and maybe a little cute, yes. What used to be a “practice horse” can go for what used to be a “show horse” price nowadays.

[TheDBYC]

Donning the ole fire retardant suit to ask a question: Were the good old days of showing – hunters especially – ever actually more than a sweet spot of a decade or so from the mid 1960s to the late 1970s?

[NoSuchPerson]

I’m not sure there really is a “good old days” of showing hunters. I think each generation has its own good old days, memories of their past, softened around the edges by the passing of time.

[Willesdon]

Just as a passing observation, perhaps European riders are more tolerant of less-than-perfect and not-really-beautiful horses? I recently saw one for sale, a big, athletic, dark, bay and it’s Irish owner described it as “an American horse, he is so pretty”.

Even in the UK, horse prices have shot up but they haven’t yet reached the outer stratosphere. As a rough estimate, the British Equestrian Trade Association (BETA) suggests that as much as one spends to buy the animal will be approximately the cost to keep it for a year. So a hairy cob that costs £1500 will cost that much in keep, probably at grass at a DIY yard (barn) but an Eventer or Hunter that cost £18,000 will have more expensive care, such as specialist livery.

[vxf111]

Well part of this could be that Europeans are doing the jumpers, where looks literally COULD not factor in, and Americans are also doing hunters where looks do factor in.

[Mander]

@Willesdon

Just as a passing observation, perhaps European riders are more tolerant of less-than-perfect and not-really-beautiful horses? I recently saw one for sale, a big, athletic, dark, bay and it’s Irish owner described it as “an American horse, he is so pretty”.

Part of this is probably some selection bias too - importing is expensive. I can buy a 10k wonky looking warmblood overseas and spend 10k to import it…. Or I can spend 20k to find something already stateside and probably even get to sit on it first. At that price point, searching domestically is probably better. Once you reach a price point where 10k starts looking like a drop in the bucket, you’re probably looking at much nicer horses, which should be beautiful!

[MadTrotter]

@Willesdon

So a hairy cob that costs £1500 will cost that much in keep, probably at grass at a DIY yard (barn) but an Eventer or Hunter that cost £18,000 will have more expensive care, such as specialist livery.

sigh things stateside are crazy. $1500USD is the ground price for “kill pen pulls” or sound right off the track.

“Hairy cobs” are “gypsy vanners” or “draft cross hunt prospects” and start at $10k.

$18k might get you a young, pretty, barely started cross made up of 2 or more of the following: draft/TB/DHH/Fresian, or a sound, restarted OTTB.

Get ready to spend $20k+ for a two year old warmblood or ISH. Want it started? $30k+. Want it showing? $50k+.

[Pokerface]

@MadTrotter

$18k might get you a young, pretty, barely started cross made up of 2 or more of the following: draft/TB/DHH/Fresian, or a sound, restarted OTTB.

Get ready to spend $20k+ for a two year old warmblood or ISH. Want it started? $30k+. Want it showing? $50k+.

That’s because of how expensive it is in EVERY direction to raise and keep a horse. I have a filly that I bred from my very nice mare. Not counting mares purchase price, it cost me over $5,000 just to get the filly on the ground. I was extremely fortunate that the mare got pregnant on the first go, had a perfectly uneventful pregnancy, and no issues with foaling out. Filly is 4 this year and just about ready to be backed, and just with basic cost of feed, bedding, and vet care, she probably costs around $5,000 a year to keep. This is a low estimate, and she lives at my parent’s farm. So we have about $20-$25k in her and she isn’t even under saddle yet. So basically, when I want to sell her, that is the baseline from which I am starting.

[fivestrideline]

@Pokerface

Not counting mares purchase price, it cost me over $5,000 just to get the filly on the ground. I was extremely fortunate that the mare got pregnant on the first go, had a perfectly uneventful pregnancy, and no issues with foaling out. Filly is 4 this year and just about ready to be backed, and just with basic cost of feed, bedding, and vet care, she probably costs around $5,000 a year to keep. This is a low estimate, and she lives at my parent’s farm. So we have about $20-$25k in her and she isn’t even under saddle yet. So basically, when I want to sell her, that is the baseline from which I am starting.

This is wonderful info I’d wanted to ask for but didn’t want to derail.

My BO has 2 long yearlings that she paid ~$5k each for. Add the shipping, feed/vet/supps/farrier/general care, she said she’s got well over $10k into each of them at 16 months-ish. I would guess $5k a year MINIMUM for their upkeep, barring anything strange. By 4 they’ll have $25-$30k in them, and they’re “just” draft crosses of unfamous breeding. Add in any pedigree value (nice babies are going for $15k-$25k the second they hit the ground), and there you have a $60k unbroke 4YO.

Ouchies.

Doing the jumpers with an OTTB is starting to sound really nice, despite my desire for a certain build and movement that isn’t prevalent in the breed.

[Pokerface]

Right, this is why I didn’t include the purchase price of my mare, but yeah, mare is top notch with excellent breeding, the filly is fancy, so that will likely factor in to her pricing. We have been lucky, she is very healthy and easy, so her cost of living has been minimal.

I say all this to illustrate that not all American owners/breeders are greedy, nor are they martyrs. It’s just expensive to keep a horse all around, and no one should have to take a loss if they have successfully raised and trained a nice horse. It is definitely cheaper to keep horses in Europe, but if we don’t invest in the American market to some degree, things will only get more expensive.

[MadTrotter]

I’m not saying it’s cheap to get a baby on the ground, or that breeders are greedy. There have been endless threads about it. One problem is breeding and colt starting happening in the same super expensive regions as showing and training.

But as a country, we are awash in unwanted QH stock, for example. So they are figuring out how to pump out foals. It’s just the priorities we have as a country, and solid rideable English discipline horses isn’t it.

And I second the above opinion that for those who CAN afford it, the horses skew very fancy and set up expectations for the (vanishing) “middle”.

I’m not old but I am crotchety and will forever be advocating for pony clubbing over shows for my kids.

[vxf111]

@MadTrotter

But as a country, we are awash in unwanted QH stock, for example. So they are figuring out how to pump out foals. It’s just the priorities we have as a country, and solid rideable English discipline horses isn’t it.

These aren’t all the reasons but some reasons why it’s cheaper to get a random QH foal on the ground is…

-They are bred on ranches in parts of the country while land is cheaper. A lot of WB horses are being bred in more centralized locations where the cost of leaving is higher.
-They are bred live cover with stallions running with the mares and whoever gets pregnant gets pregnant. Most WBs are not being bred live cover.
-They are doing much less with them between foaling and selling than breeders of WB horses.
-They are getting much less vet care than similar WB broodmares and foals.

[fivestrideline]

That’s the case with these draft cross babies. Really nice horses with good brains, and “cheap” because they’re run in herds in Canada, and I’m assuming live cover and then turned out in the broodmare band. The horses have all been pretty dang sturdy (I know 5 or more of them), so I imagine the mares are similarly easy to care for. No way could they turn a profit at ~$5k otherwise, despite owning the studs as well as the broodies.

[MadTrotter]

I think I covered a lot of that, and I don’t want to derail into some sort of, “let’s all start pumping out WBs like QHs”. My initial comment was to the person located abroad talking about their “hairy cobs”.

[MadTrotter]

There’s a case for this kind of breeding, and it tends to create hardier horses. What some people might not accept is that a foal who isn’t thriving might be culled rather than shipped off to Rood and Riddle for tens of thousands in surgery and treatment.

And I get it. A lot of people on this site have a mare they love, that they breed to a very nice sire, and they provide the very best of vet care and training in the highest COL regions.

But this is not a scalable model.

[phoenixrises]

I know there are a couple places in wyoming with this mindset and if I was in the market for an eventer it’s where I’d be looking (a friend did and he’s lovely for the BN/N job and all around good boy). However, other than maybe some oddball you’re probably not finding an upper level anything from there, and hunters are pretty much out.

So it’s really about what you wanna do and what makes you happy. And generally if it’s the hunters that make you happy you better be willing to $$$$ or live with the fact that you aren’t going to place in any type of company (the way I went).