Money or nothing

[Trekkie]

An interesting side note I will point out as all the stuff on this thread made me curious. I had a very cute, brave 15.2 hand horse I made up as a kid to be an awesome little event horse. He was flashy, brave and jumped anything up to 3’ 3. He had a sweet personality and was pretty bombproof. I sold him for $3500 as a 6 year old and bought a young TB mare for $5k. She was absolutely brave and jumped around anything up to 4’. Kid friendly and easy. The prices for comparable horses today would be about 10x those prices. Interestingly, general inflation does not explain that increase.

“The dollar had an average inflation rate of 2.70% per year between 1987 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 161.26%. This means that today’s prices are 2.61 times as high as average prices since 1987, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index.”

2.61 is a far cry from 10. So why are the prices and cost of horses increasing so rapidly compared to other commodities? Supply and demand? Loss of land? Loss of knowledge? Corruption? Cost of development of horses attributed to the previous? I wonder if prices will ever come down. I do know that as a brave kid with a bit of farm knowledge I was able to start and make a couple horses with pretty minimal assistance–mostly unheard of these days in the US although I think still done in Europe. Have we just completely lost touch with our agricultural heritage? Are we scared to do things independently? No one has farms anymore except big time people? Whatever the reason I do acknowledge that to own your own and show in most areas of the US it takes significant income to make it all work. I do think there are opportunities for young folks to ride and learn if they are not wealthy but are motivated and hard working.

[trakehners]

@Amberley

Real estate.

Seconding this—to quote my trainer from a conversation last week when we were complaining about the sloppy southwestern PA winter, “[Husband] has asked me why we don’t move somewhere with less crappy weather and I always tell him, I can’t afford all of this anywhere else!”

My boarding/training situation is a unicorn in that my board is $400 and my trainer is a 5* eventer. She’s the one doing all the barn work, except for days when us boarders pitch in or her stepson is off school and can assist. Her family owns the farm—it’s where she grew up—so they aren’t contending with recent land prices, but that’s about her only advantage (and it is a huge one, admittedly, although real estate in the area is still pretty cheap in comparison to a lot of places). She built her business from the ground up (she first taught me 15+ years ago at a different barn when her entire client base was beginner kids, after her stint working as a vet tech for 5+ years) and was just explaining to me last night that she was only able to build the addition on the barn (turning it from the small backyard barn that she grew up with to the 20-stall facility it is now) by selling one of her two competition horses that she had made herself, who was running at the 2* level at the time.

Every other major improvement (the outdoor, indoor, footing, jumps, etc.) has come from those sorts of transactions, and consequently other people taking those horses to those top levels (and thus her not making it back to a 5* since her last run in 2015). Every boarder in her barn is making their own horses because none of us can afford to buy the made ones (I bought mine for $1500 as a 2yo), and she’s made a conscious decision to not charge what the market would say she’s worth in lesson fees (again, unicorn bargain) because it lets her be more selective about the personalities that she brings into the barn and also means that a lot of us are lessoning twice a week instead of once every two weeks, so it ends up working out better for her in the long run in terms of a consistent client base/income.

The tradeoff with this is that we’re two hours away at minimum from any recognized competitions and an hour away from most of the “local” schooling shows. We’re also an hour+ outside of the city, so while that does help with real estate prices/taxes, it’s not exactly convenient for most people (especially in a place where we have a joke about how everything here is twenty minutes away). The fact that she doesn’t keep lesson horses also helps with cost because her insurance is drastically cheaper.

Really what it boils down to, though, is a) her costs are lower because she isn’t contending with the real estate market of even the last ten years and b) she’s intentionally targeted a client base who may not have the most money but care about what happens to their horses, which is such a rare situation these days that I do sometimes feel like I’m living in a fever dream. I pretty much had a mental breakdown about five years ago in my last training situation due to the pressure to lease and show when I was just trying to ride on a college student’s budget, and it’s been a huge breath of fresh air to be back in a barn where my trainer literally does not care if I ever leave the property or pay her a single show coaching fee as long as I have goals and I’m working hard to achieve them.

(Our current goal is to be able to canter in a straight line and have a decent downward transition at the end. We’ve got the first half together, still working on the second, lol.)

[gertie06]

I have been riding for 30+ years and now I am finally feeling priced out. My husband and I collectively make almost $200K/year. Our house is paid off. Our cars and student loans are paid off. Horses are our biggest expense, and I only own one. I only ride 2-3 days/week. I only show 3-4 times per year. I have finally reached the point of asking if it’s worth it. As an adult of a certain age, one has to think about the possibility of ever being able to retire in this lifetime. If I saved everything I’m spending on horses, I could probably retire now.

[Samondel]

Honestly, anywhere in Ontario that isn’t between London and Toronto (other than Ottawa, I think), might as well be the middle of nowhere! I’m in Windsor, and it’s nearly impossible to get saddle fitters etc here. I’m just lucky that my mum has an extra stall at her place near London, so my lazy self goes there the day before, and knocks a couple hours off my morning haul with no stabling fees (other than bringing a bottle of wine).

[NaturallyHappy]

I was an occasional haul in for a lesson and was expected to chip in on a golf cart for a birthday gift. Geesh… I still resent that.

[Renn_aissance]

@gertie06

As an adult of a certain age, one has to think about the possibility of ever being able to retire in this lifetime.

This is where I am. I have a retired elder statesman, and after he departs this mortal coil- which I hope will be no sooner nor later than he wishes- I doubt I will own another horse. The cost of buying a nice young baby Thoroughbred is one thing. The costs of everything related to keeping that horse happy and well are just getting out of my price range. I spend almost as much as my mortgage on horsekeeping, which is not going to be a sensible long-term financial decision.

Sure, there are ways one can economize- but if I move the horse out to self-care I’m spending more time and gas money to get to the facility, and then I have to figure out how to bribe my vet and farrier to come out of their range, or bribe a barn in their range to let me ship in to them. I ran the numbers, because I was exploring the possibility of moving my horse and his BFF to retirement digs when the BFF is ready to get his gold watch, and it was not going to be a significant savings.

[Jealoushe]

It sucks!

[fivestrideline]

Just for an interesting thought:

A farm owner in FL just posted their hay bill for the year on a FB group I’m in. Hay has doubled in price in just 2-3 years. The comments are also intriguing with some solid numbers of % increase since 2019 for hay/feed/etc, and while I KNEW things had gotten ridiculously expensive, I was shocked to see the numbers. But yeah, they are spot on when I crunched my own data.

Just for hay (25lbs of middle cost square bales) and feed (minimum required of TC Senior), I’m almost at $500/month. Throw in farrier, minimal cheap supps, vet savings/insurance costs, and we are between $700 and $900 a month. No lessons, no tack, no major vet bills, no trailer payment or actual board/labor/gas/water/etc etc etc.

Yes there’s ways to cut these costs in some areas depending on your location and connections. But how many people making median wages (and not sitting on paid off family land or some other fortuitous situation) can spare almost a grand a month to just own a horse? We aren’t even talking “making it” in any capacity, just owning something that could theoretically compete at some level in a discipline of choice.

[glenburn]

No. If you do not have the skill, you will ruin a seven figure horse in a few classes.

[FindingSpirit]

"I said to my partner recently, “It’s not the riding I’m burnt out on, it’s the constant and ever increasing obstacles to get to ride”.

This is more in line to the comments about board at the beginning of the thread
…

This is my current situation as well as other things added into it. I’m based in NY, and the cost is what I’d expect-- 1k-2k a month for full service board at some established hunter/eq barns. 12k to 24k for the year essentially. You need to have some money if you intend to own (which I do) and even more to show.

I guess I’ll go a little off topic here.
Thankfully even though a lot of these barns here have a lot of students who show, it’s not always a die hard show atmosphere. Many lessoners ride non-warmblood lesson horses, there’s always new faces and no pressure to ‘go pro’.

At the place I learned to ride (and a few other areas), they have teams that go to a lot of $$$$$$ shows with horses that costs $$$,$$$. Yet no one discourages you from buying ‘out of breed’ or learning on your own. The grooms will help out if you really need help. Things run smoothly.

To me, the more places that are strict on what you can do, what you wear, what breed you can have (TB/TBx, warmbloods, etc), what schedule you should be on (etc, full training) are places that may shoehorn people into going pro. By no coincidence the same places that often costs the most and expect boarders lives to revolve around ‘going pro.’

If you don’t care about top level competition and just want to enjoy your horse, I’d avoid barns that have limited options concerning the things I mentioned above. It may also save your wallet too.

[glenburn]

Yes, horse shows are expensive. We see many riders who simply are not ready to show and should be practicing at home. If you love horses and riding, concentrate on that. Even more ridiculous is someone going to WEF to do some low low hunter division. As a famous rider/friend said we go for the following; to win everything or to sell a good one.

[NoSuchPerson]

@glenburn

Yes, horse shows are expensive. We see many riders who simply are not ready to show and should be practicing at home. If you love horses and riding, concentrate on that. Even more ridiculous is someone going to WEF to do some low low hunter division. As a famous rider/friend said we go for the following; to win everything or to sell a good one.

You’re ignoring economics. Horse shows that don’t bring in lots of competitors aren’t economically viable. The numbers of riders capable of competing over the bigger fences in the classes you would have shows restrict themselves to are dwindling.

You should be grateful to those folks who want to show at WEF and WEC in low low hunter divisions because they’re helping subsidize the rest of you.

Ditto for the trainers. Being able to take half (or more) of their lesson program to these big shows helps make it economically viable. Without those more numerous low hunter riders there to help pay the overhead, the few higher level riders in the program would be paying a lot more to be there.

[glenburn]

Please re-read about the complaint of cost. If you are doing the low hunters in WEF for the season and spending about six figures, there is no room for a complaint about expense. I have volunteered to pay the entry of others just to fill the 3’6" A/O division, at shows where this division used to be crowded. Regarding cost, some of my best memories were the Southern Pines schooling shows (all voluntary) that would precede WEF or Devon. You were in the same class with David, Patty, Joey, and it was fun and relaxed. A shame shows are mostly humorless business and everyone acts so entitled. Hope you have more fun than your response suggests.

[Foitin]

I think the point about having fun is very important, and you can do this in many different divisions, from cross rails to the high adult jumpers. A few weeks ago, 4 people in our barn were in the same adult hunter division. we joked around so much we annoyed our trainer, but that was the most fun I’d had at a horse show in three years. I was not champion and chipped twice and got a crap ribbon in the classic. I do think that the 3´6’’ divisions are difficult to fill at smaller shows/less popular circuits because the horses are so ridiculously expensive and yes, it is kinda scary to jump that big and if you do decide to do it, you really need to practice and be riding multiple horses, at least at home. Last year there were about 30 older 3’6’’ amateurs at indoors, but in our region, there are usually 5 or 6, the last Upperville had 11. Just in the Upperville group, I know of 2 or 3 horses that were purchased for over 1million. Another individuals’s practice horse was “several hundred thousand dollars.” There were more local individuals with atypical horses that were found doing one thing and made to do another (my case), but its a tough crowd.

[NoSuchPerson]

No. Without all the other riders, there won’t be a show at all. Do you think people who put on horse shows do it just for fun? No. They need to make a profit.

Sure, it might be cheaper for you but you’re the only one who really cares about that. Shows are run the way they are to maximize profit and sustainability.

Also, the way shows are run in Europe really has very little relevance to the way shows are run in the US.

[NoSuchPerson]

@glenburn

Hope you have more fun than your response suggests.

I have a fantastic time at horse shows. I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t. But, as I have already said multiple times in this discussion, I mostly show on a local circuit with 2-day shows, i.e. shows that I can afford to attend.

However, that does not mean that I’m blind to the economic realities of horse showing at both lower and upper levels.

[glenburn]

Respectfully, comments without corresponding experience isn’t very definitive.

[NoSuchPerson]

Pretty much anytime someone starts a sentence with “respectfully,” you know that what follows isn’t meant to be respectful at all.

What I’m doing now as an old lady doesn’t mean that it’s the only thing I’ve ever done.

[glenburn]

“Respectfully” in my usage means respectful to the facts and not disrespectful to the person. All opinions have value and deserve respect, especially those with experience. My apologies and respect are offered. Thank you.

[danhelm441]

I live in a HCOL area that also happens to be extremely horsey. Gorgeous facilities with immaculate indoors are everywhere. The going rate for training board is $3500/mo. You can go to shows almost any weekend and see 6-figure horses competing in every division, right up to the hunter derby and Grand Prix.

These horses just take your breath away they are so beautifully conditioned and trained. Last time we went to a show, we ran into the most beautiful hunter just bopping along on slack reins past the port-a-potties with a girl who couldn’t have been older than 13 hanging with her feet out of the stirrups like it was the most casual thing in the world. It was surreal. Idk how to describe it except it gave you the same frisson as a celebrity sighting.

My non-horsey friend who was with me was like, “does that bother you?” Seeing kids with horses like that, showing at venues like that. And the true answer is that no, honestly, it doesn’t bother me. It’s not the fancy made horses, high-end venues, or high level classes I feel envious about. What gets me jealous is the riding education some people get, and their access and exposure to quality training and people who know what they’re doing. I think people can take that for granted. But it’s just so inequitable, honestly, how horsemanship knowledge is passed around. Sure there are books and YouTube videos, and Noelle Floyd master classes these days, but imho there is no substitute for working directly with horses who know their jobs and people who know how to get horses to that level.

My vet put me in touch with a girl who’s started coming out to ride my horse. She’s a vet tech, doesn’t have her own horse, she grew up showing but doesn’t anymore. But she’s the person I’m jealous of, not the AA’s with hack winning hunters showing every weekend. She just has so much skill and training knowledge, growing up in a horse mecca and spending years riding. I feel like I’ve learned so much and improved my riding just from watching her ride my horse. Idk, it’s wild how much time you can waste in your riding life with no clue what you are doing, trying to figure it out as you go from people who are also figuring it out as they go. I’m sure some people can be self-taught wonders and some horses are born broke packers, but when you and your horse are just a couple of normies, having access to real training knowledge and quality coaching is game changing