I highly recommend Mark Rashid’s books. The first three are the best in my opinion. Considering the horse. Horses Never LIe. A Good Horse is Never a Bad Color.
A lot of similarity - as in a lot of outright fraud and BS. For instance - nowhere in the Shy Boy book does he mention the wranglers that did most of the work off screen and out of sight - just so good old Monty could ride in and do magical things with an already tired horse. There is an old documentary (BBC or CBC or both) about the making of the Shy Boy “special”.
Monty in his heyday was all about Monty the Amazing Horsewhisperer and nothing else. Haters gonna hate? Seriously? When the man said that he and he alone had discovered the language of Equus… my eyes rolled. Be that as it may, I was eagerly looking forward to a Join Up demo in Alberta many years ago… some proceeds would benefit our therapeutic riding center. A trainer friend was given the task of finding a couple of suitable horses for MR to work with.
He had a few in to start - and got permission for a chestnut TB mare - only halter broke - to be used. He also had to find a horse to demo trailer loading - and had a young QH gelding that would work for that. In order to help the 2 demo horses, he also loaded up his calm and sensible flashy grade gelding who was a great babysitter for other horses.
I was helping behind the scenes… and saw and heard all this first hand. And my opinion of MR is based that…
I know I have shared this here on COTH before - but here we go again.
We hauled the horses in early to the exhibition grounds. Monty approved of the TB. Did not like the young QH (who was just standing there tied) and said he wanted to use my friend’s flashy gelding. B (my friend) said - no, he will load himself! Monty laughed and said but the crowd will not know that…
When the TB mare went into Monty’s mesh metal cage aka round pen (she was the second one in) , she apparently had not read any of MR’s books or watched any videos - she did not know she was supposed to succumb to the Great Man’s charms as per his schedule. He ran her round and round - rarely giving her a chance to process anything or have a break. I was up in the stands watching this part behind some real cowboys… who were disgusted. MR ran her back and forth while he kept checking his watch… as the mare tired out and still did not join up with the guy who just kept chasing her - MR declared that she was retarded (ummm - proceeds to therapeutic riding center FFS) and some horses were just like that. He ordered her out. B was beyond pissed. The dutiful MR fans applauded and nodded wisely. Many other people walked out. The mare had a bloody lip from running in to the mesh.
Time for trailer loading - where MR told the adoring fans that this horse had severe loading issues due to a wreck (never happened) and that he was just going to work with the horse quietly and he would walk into the trailer all on his own due to MR’s magic. SURPRISE!!! The gelding quietly walked into the trailer when MR sent him - which said horse had been doing for years. The ooooooohs and aaaaaaahs and applause followed and MR basked in it.
Monty showed that his wonderful magic could back the horse quietly out of the trailer on cue… more approval and applause. Then it was time to go to the merchandise tables and buy stuff and get MR’s autograph. We passed.
That chestnut TB mare came home and was started correctly by B - and became a lovely hunter. The plain little QH gelding that MR thought would not be flashy enough ended up loading himself and was an awesome little AQHA show horse.
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Yes, it did - but it still irks me to see MR praised as the great horse whisperer. He was not even the inspiration for the Horse Whisperer book as he claimed - it was Buck Brannaman. He has done some good things, yes. But sometimes you just need to look behind that curtain a bit… because, to quote MR - the crowd will not know that.
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Oh I would never try that join up with an OTTB. They can get themselves into running nonstop. I knew a midteen OTTB mare that gave herself heatstroke in turnout alone in the summer. They can just have this switch flip in their heads and get more and more excited. I’ve also seen an Arabian do this.
My Paint mare can be bat out of hell in turnout but as soon as she gets properly out of breath she takes a break and wants to visit with you. I’m also working with an unbroke Iberian cross, same thing, once she gets the wiggles out she calms down and listrbs to you.
So no you don’t want to round pen an OTTB to the extent they get into flight racing mode because it just doesn’t work like it does for more self protective horses.
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If you’re doing the “join up” right and controlling the situation by backing off when things start to get “Western” then this risk is manageable. What too many people fail to realize is that it’s not the speed at which you work the horse that makes the “magic;” it’s the horse accepting that you are the Big Kahuna. The toughest one I ever had was headstrong Marchador mare and it over an hour of constant walking (with short stints at the gait and canter) before she gave in. Oh, and that for the first direction (to the right, IIRC). The left took a few minutes less. If I were doing this with a really “wild” horse and they just started to run I leave the round pen until they quit (if I couldn’t stop them). The worst situation I know of was an imported Marchador stallion that got annoyed at being worked and attacked the trainer in the round pen. The trainer suffered a bite to his side, sustained as he went UNDER the lower rail of pen. That stallion was euthanized a few months later after he proved to be aggressive, unattainable and dangerous. Fortunately he was never bred in the U.S.
Most of the Marchadors I’ve ever worked in this fashion actually did take well under an hour, total, to get with the program. I keep track of times because that tells me things about the temperament of the horse.
This is a “precision drill” not a “speed drill.” That part of Monty (and a few others) emphasizing time is what I really dislike.
G.
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Trainers are only human. Some horses aren’t going to fit with the program- or be okay with a short demonstration. My Paso would panic the minute you put him in the round pen. His mind would go right out the window. He was half starved and even that was not enough to prevent him from running himself into the ground. I could sit there and read a book on the step stool and he would gallop circles around me. He was that terrified.
Did Join up work with him? Yes, eventually. It took many, many sessions. Even after over 2 years, he will sometimes leave instead of coming to me. His defense is to find a corner and turn his rump to you. I have to move him out of the corner and try and catch his eye, so he will approach. He will lead without a rope, yield hindquarters etc. A horse like him is not going to train in a 1 hour demonstration.
Does this make Monty Roberts a bad trainer? I don’t think it does. I take what I can use and adapt it to my training style. If I don’t agree with something, I discard it.
Monty Roberts is a good story teller. But his books aren’t exactly a training journal. I find it better to watch his training videos. The thing to keep in mind, is that Monty Roberts has travelled and is trying to expose people to his ideas. There are many places in the world where horses are treated very roughly and unfairly. For every good horse person, there are probably several that don’t deserve to be anywhere near a horse.
These idiots for example. There was a video even worse that has been removed.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S63GNQOv6mE
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Exactly right. He never backed off on that mare… never let her process anything… he just processed his watch. He could have said things like “every horse takes their own time to reach certain levels of understanding” or something to that effect… but no. When he lied so brazenly to the crowd to make himself look good - I tend to believe his family’s concerns about his tall tales of the past and their distant relationship to the truth.
Another pet peeve… MR claimed he invented and discovered “Join Up”. Well, maybe he gave it a name he could slap a trademark on - but that practice and technique has been used by good horsemen/trainers… forever.
As 4horses said - you take a bit from this trainer and a bit from that one and another bit from someone else - and put them all together to do what is best for a particular horse or situation.
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The “bit by bit” approach is not necessarily bad. But it does, necessarily, presume the knowledge, experience, and wisdom to choose wisely and to correctly use what you choose. WAY too many of the “gurus” that hawk “systems” tout theirs as a stand-alone, no other help required program. Roberts, Parelli, Tellington-Jones, etc. all did this. And all were wrong.
G.
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OP, if you’re still around, Monty Roberts is a good story-weaver, but not a great teacher of horsemanship.
If you’re looking to order books, order anything by Buck Brannaman, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, or Deb Bennett. You can also peruse the websites of Harry Whitney, Josh Nichols, Tom Moates, Martin Black, Bryan Neubert and Tom Curtin. These are all fantastic horsemen and women who live what they teach, have been very generous over the decades in giving students who want to learn their time and sharing their knowledge and who will be the first to tell you that they won’t blow sunshine up anyone’s rear. They are, as far as I am concerned, the real deal.
If you’re looking for great writing, Tom Moates is an especially good one - he’s a fabulous writer and has spent the better part of his life learning from Harry Whitney in particular, who is known as one of the better horsemen of his generation albeit one who has preferred to stay out of the larger clinic scene. Tom spent a long time working with Harry and does an excellent job of capturing his voice and horsemanship in a way that gives you plenty of information but is not your typical “training” text.
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You know, when I saw one of those train-your-horse-in-a-day types had a clinic near me, I called to ask if I could bring my equine. They turned me down flat! None of those NH guys will attempt to round pen a donkey. No idea why…
:lol::lol::lol:
Donkeys have taught me a lot about training horses, but, by far, the best lesson was not to rush.
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Just realized the pic may be blurry. Authors I found were:
Ray Hunt
Buck Brannaman
Tom Dorrance
Mark Rashid
And Monty Robert’s (because I want to finish reading the story)
I also just finished the clicker training series for horses and the online Intrinzen book.
As you may have gathered…I love reading 😄
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MR also takes a lot of credit for the way the Queen demanded that all her horses be broken the MR way.
And then he copywrites his “Join Up” expression.
As I grew up I never knew anbody who manhandled, or roughed up a horse, green or otherwise so he was preaching to the choir in many cases.
Guilherme stated most of what I would have said.
I am glad that the expression “come to Jesus” has largely been abandoned by members of COTH. We try to be better here.
OP - your selection of writers is good - those are true horsemen. Once I phoned Tom Dorrence, and he actually answered his own phone - wehad a little chat!
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I prefer John Chatterton’s Face up to Monty Roberts join up. He does have a book called John Chatterton’s 10 Commandments.
Join up uses chasing a horse and tiring it out. That is not training in my book
Face up uses correct timing and you do back off. That is training.
So I used it on an ottb. He went in. I swung the rope. He went forward to canter and went up. He was 16.2hh so on his hind feet he was extremely tall and towered over me.
But at the top of that rear he looked at me. I dropped the rope and backed a step. He actually turned in the air and came down facing me. I praised.
… and that was it. He got it. 3 seconds of training and on timing alone. This turned out to be the smartest horse I have ever ridden. He went off on the incorrect lead under saddle only once. Laterals were down pat one month later with only asking for them once for 3 steps and then praising.
I miss him.
The ‘Classical’ method of the cavalry is often not gentle, to neither man nor beast.
A horseman got to ask the people behind the scenes of the SRS why all the stallions had heads as big as barns.
The answer was simple: They take the drilling better than the lighter, more pretty bloodlines.
On the same note, a seasoned horseman and farmer walked out of a training session he got to observe at a famous Iberian barn. A lot of tapping went on, tapping the legs - until blood was flowing.
The cavalry has a standard for remounts for a reason: Because one size must fit all.
Of course, there have always been snake oil salesmen.
There are many roads that lead to Rome though.
Not all are the highway of the cavalry, nor the trampled paths of the NH crowd.
There are the scenic byways of those who are wise to take what works and discard the rest, from either ‘school’ of training.
I’ll take Monty Roberts over Parelli any day, but they are the bottom rungs on the ladder. I’ve watched Parelli and Parelli-ites. Most of us have been involved in that discussion. I also have seen a few people trying to do join up and it didn’t really work.
I ignored Mark Rashid until I went to a clinic at Equine Affaire a few years ago. I thought he was another one of the NH colt starters. Now I’m hooked. I’ve read all but one of his books. The last one I finished recently is A Journey to Softness, in Search of Feel and Connection with the Horse. I think it is better to read it after you have read a few others. It’s not a training book. It’s remarkable. He takes us through his life experiences with horses and his life. If you have read other volumes, you know about the old man, some of his employment history, and building the clinic business. I’m not into martial arts, but it’s more about what he learned about his life. There are reflections and insight that I didn’t expect. It made me think about a few things including my life and my horse. It’s in the re-read pile.
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I’ve met Roberts.
I wouldn’t trust him with a horse, and I wouldn’t trust him in general any further than I could toss him into a heavy wind.
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I see that this is an older post, but regardless…
At one point, I owned/read all of the Monty Roberts books. I will say that Horse Sense for People was actually the one I found the most insightful/useful. After finding out that he essentially “stole” Buck Brannaman’s life story to use in The Man Who Listens to Horses, I lost all respect for him as a person.
That said, I think that part of being a good horseman/horsewoman is to be open minded. No matter what your experience level or background, you can almost always learn something from watching/listening to others. You never know where a useful tidbit of information might come from.
And you can also learn things you will never ever do.
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I’ve met him too, and wouldn’t trust him with a Breyer horse.
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