More colts than fillies, What am I doing wrong?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8636289]
I don’t think show condition and starving are synonymous so I am not sure keeping mares show fit dovetails with that suggested method based on herds facing true harsh conditions. I have not read the study about true hardship but an animal’s body knows the difference between a true shortage and being fit. It does not follow that because starving animals/animals experiencing hardship produce more female offspring you can mimic that effect by keeping an animal fit/healthily lean. Just because X causes Y doesn’t mean that something maybe a little like X also necessarily causes Y. Nor do I think any vet would put offspring sex higher on the priority list than ensuring adequate nutrition to the dam. It concerns me greatly that anyone would just “cut back” a pregnant mare’s food in the hopes of getting a filly SIMPLY ON THE BASIS OF SOME INTERNET DISCUSSION WITH NO LINK TO ANYTHING REMOTELY SCIENTIFIC. OP please consult your vet.[/QUOTE]

Did you read the study of the link posted above?
Several papers mentioned and no starving animals. Not even animals in hardship. I did a BSc, the idea of animals having strategies for determining sex of offspring is a not new. But it is also not 100% cause and effect and there are other factors, some mentioned. No suggestions of cutting back food of pregnant mare’s as as sex is already determined.
The OP asked for reasonable suggestions.

[ShadowsMom]

We had all colts (for 3 years) and I LONGED for a filly…now all we seem to have is fillies…would you like some of mine??? (You have to be careful what you wish for!)

[reachforthesky]

You guys are great! Thank you so much. Not sure how we got on starving horses that were preggo, think the suggestion was to cut back a little prior to conception, breed and then feed as usual. Since my mares do not miss many meals the cutting back should not be too severe. I hate seeing ribs,I am part Italian and my family ate food, so I have to fight my nature to not feed them too well. I will cut back on the grain for the one mare I am breeding.

Also, I know AAs prefer geldings and I have had absolutely no trouble selling my boys, since I only breed quality Dutch mares to very popular Dutch stallions, but I would also love to keep a mare for future generations and it has happened only once. My quarter horse this year, born last week, was a boy. So nice and I wish wish wish he was a filly cause I would have kept it, but a boy.

We only get one per year, so times ticks by.

Any other thoughts would be much appreciated. Semen sexing? It is out there.

[reachforthesky]

That is a sweet offer Sue. That is the neat thing about breeding. You can fine tune your breeding goal and make it pretty unique and interesting and if you get nice girls you can keep that direction going. Boys, well, stallion owning is not for me.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=reachforthesky;8636582]
You guys are great! Thank you so much. Not sure how we got on starving horses that were preggo, think the suggestion was to cut back a little prior to conception, breed and then feed as usual. Since my mares do not miss many meals the cutting back should not be too severe. I hate seeing ribs,I am part Italian and my family ate food, so I have to fight my nature to not feed them too well. I will cut back on the grain for the one mare I am breeding. [/QUOTE]

But you do realize there’s no evidence that this would have any effect at all?! Short of a few people on the internet saying to do it… why would you? Especially without discussing with your vet? Physicologically there is a MAJOR difference between starving/food shortage and a minor decrease in food that does not cause a change in condition. There is no physiological evidence to suggest the latter has anything to do with foal sex. So why would you do it?

If it was true that fit/show condition mares had fillies than every in-work broodie would have a filly. There are disciplines where mares are more often kept in work right up until they give birth (polo, working cowhorses, etc.). I assure you, they do not have higher percentages of fillies born. If this was true, ever WOMAN who worked out during her pregnancy would have a girl. That’s not the case, is it?

Why not put a pink ribbon in her mane while she’s being bred? I am an internet nobody and I am telling you that my anecdotal experience is that this is a sure fire way to get a filly. They did this study where they fed flamingos pink shrimp and it made their feathers pink-- so I extrapolate that putting a pink ribbon in your broodmare’s mane will turn her foal into a filly.

It’s nice that you want fillies. But cutting back your mare’s food, especially without consulting the vet, is not going to accomplish that. It’s no more juju magic than putting a pink ribbon in her mane.

[RodeoFTW]

She said in the thread she wanted to know where the closest witch doctor was.

[Amberkez]

Not that I breed often but I through the years I’ve stay about 2/3 fillies 1/3 colts. And all of my mares are fat, probably too fat.

And whether it works or not I use Apple Cider Vinegar 30 days before breeding and 30 days after (in case first insemination doesn’t take). While stallions determine the sex of the foal, the “good ole guys” say the cider creates an unfavorable environment for the male sperm. Don’t know if its true or not but I have more fillies

Also, from what I understand the Y’s move slower but have better longevity. Breeding further from ovulation allows the male sperm to “die” off leaving the females around. Of course, who wants to risk not hitting ovulation on time!

[Cumano]

But you do realize there’s no evidence that this would have any effect at all?! Short of a few people on the internet saying to do it… why would you? Especially without discussing with your vet? Physicologically there is a MAJOR difference between starving/food shortage and a minor decrease in food that does not cause a change in condition. There is no physiological evidence to suggest the latter has anything to do with foal sex. So why would you do it?

This ^^^^. I would not venture into that option without a close follow up by a vet. Cutting on food if you concider you have been overfeeding is one thing, but causin deprivation in the hope of influencing the sex of the foal may not be a safe game. Cutting back on grain implies cutting back on the maine source of vitamins and minerals. And you may not even achieve your goal as they may get overweight only eating hay.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8636624]
But you do realize there’s no evidence that this would have any effect at all?! Short of a few people on the internet saying to do it… why would you? Especially without discussing with your vet? Physicologically there is a MAJOR difference between starving/food shortage and a minor decrease in food that does not cause a change in condition. There is no physiological evidence to suggest the latter has anything to do with foal sex. [/QUOTE]

Here is evidence that mare body condition impacts foal sex ratios: http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/5/472.full (Google is your friend). What evidence do you have that mare body condition doesn’t impact foal sex ratios? Or are you just one of a “few people on the internet” saying not to adjust a mare’s feed?

@vxf111;8636624

If it was true that fit/show condition mares had fillies than every in-work broodie would have a filly. There are disciplines where mares are more often kept in work right up until they give birth (polo, working cowhorses, etc.).

Reductio ad absurdum. The studies show an increase in filly/colt ratios produced by mares with poorer body condition. In simple terms, this means that such mares will tend to produce more fillies than the expected 50/50 ratio – it doesn’t mean that such mares will produce a filly every time.

@vxf111;8636624

I assure you, they do not have higher percentages of fillies born.

What are your qualifications to provide such assurances? Have you studied this? Other than just being another outspoken person on the internet with an opinion…?

@vxf111;8636624

If this was true, ever WOMAN who worked out during her pregnancy would have a girl. That’s not the case, is it?

Again, reductio ad absurdum.

@vxf111;8636624

Why not put a pink ribbon in her mane while she’s being bred? I am an internet nobody and I am telling you that my anecdotal experience is that this is a sure fire way to get a filly. They did this study where they fed flamingos pink shrimp and it made their feathers pink-- so I extrapolate that putting a pink ribbon in your broodmare’s mane will turn her foal into a filly.

No, you’re an internet somebody that’s gone on a rant with silly arguments and less evidence than others have already proffered about the role of mare body condition and its effect on foal sex ratios.

@vxf111;8636624

It’s nice that you want fillies. But cutting back your mare’s food, especially without consulting the vet, is not going to accomplish that.

I have adjusted a mare’s feed, under the advice and guidance of a therio, to do exactly what other posters have suggested. Is it a guarantee? No. But the evidence suggests that it improves the odds.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Amberkez;8636694]
Not that I breed often but I through the years I’ve stay about 2/3 fillies 1/3 colts. And all of my mares are fat, probably too fat.

And whether it works or not I use Apple Cider Vinegar 30 days before breeding and 30 days after (in case first insemination doesn’t take). While stallions determine the sex of the foal, the “good ole guys” say the cider creates an unfavorable environment for the male sperm. Don’t know if its true or not but I have more fillies

Also, from what I understand the Y’s move slower but have better longevity. Breeding further from ovulation allows the male sperm to “die” off leaving the females around. Of course, who wants to risk not hitting ovulation on time![/QUOTE]

Ok, don’t kill the messenger, BUT I did have a conversation with a reproductive vet about this years ago. He used to do work for a very large Arabian stud farm that wanted more fillies. They fed apple cider vinegar (I don’t remember the details of how much or when) and the amount of fillies the following year was much, much larger. I believe there were a lot of mares involved. Of course if you are only breeding a handful, IDK if you will see the result–it wasn’t 100% effective.

Now, if this was scientifically proven, I fell like everyone would be doing it, so take this with a grain of salt!

[vxf111]

Well since someone JUST produced a link to the study (I did google it but given the scant information provided on this thread I couldn’t find it. Had someone mentioned “Trivers-Willard hypothesis” it would have been a heck of a lot easier to find) so I am only now just reading it… but at least there’s a STUDY instead of a bunch of people just saying things!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8637047]
Well since someone JUST produced a link to the study (I did google it but given the scant information provided on this thread I couldn’t find it. Had someone mentioned “Trivers-Willard hypothesis” it would have been a heck of a lot easier to find) so I am only now just reading it… but at least there’s a STUDY instead of a bunch of people just saying things![/QUOTE]

Post #4. Since you started posting and an excellent study that cites literature. Huge sample numbers. And I even pointed it out to you.

[vxf111]

Some thoughts on the study (if someone linked it earlier, I missed the link. Mea culpa)…

It’s done on wild horses not domesticated ones. Given the living conditions of wild horses, “poor condition” (what it takes to increase female offspring) is a condition that I suspect NO vet will advocate keeping a non-wild mare in. In other words, if you have to reduce your mare’s diet to what a mustang gets to eat in a drought, you are probably being cruel to your horse. But you don’t have to take my word for it, look at the body scoring…

From the abstract…

<<The sex ratio varied significantly from parity in both directions. Although differences were not significant for mares of condition 1, 1.5, 3, and 3.5, mares of condition 2 gave birth to significantly fewer sons than expected (binomial test, p <.01) and mares of condition 2.5 gave birth to significantly more sons than expected (binomial test, p <.05). >>

The big statistical difference in that study was at a body score of 2. Do you really want to starve a mare down to a body score of 2 just to increase the odds of getting a filly? At body scores 2.5 you actually got MORE colts. So you not only have to starve your mare, you better make sure you starve her GOOD because if you only slightly starve her you increase your odds of a colt.

This data actually proves exactly the point I was making in my first point. That you can’t extrapolate that because a starving mare (body score 2) has an increased chance of a filly that a fit/show condition mare (body score 3) will also have an increased chance of a filly.

The statistics suggest that you’re only seeing a statistically relevant different at a pretty low body score. It seems very cruel to keep a pregnant mare at body score 2 until she is impregnated JUST to try to influence the foal sex.

[SuzieQNutter]

Bahahaha… you are so right. Here they end up steers, but of course born bulls.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8636526]
A slight modification… cows will have bulls. We make steers when we cut the dangly bits off the bulls ;)[/QUOTE]Bahahaha… you are so right. Here they end up steers, but of course born bulls.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8637070]
Some thoughts on the study … It’s done on wild horses not domesticated ones. Given the living conditions of wild horses, “poor condition” (what it takes to increase female offspring) is a condition that I suspect NO vet will advocate keeping a non-wild mare in. In other words, if you have to reduce your mare’s diet to what a mustang gets to eat in a drought, you are probably being cruel to your horse. But you don’t have to take my word for it, look at the body scoring…[/QUOTE]

One paper, citing dozens more on the topic. Really hard to take your spin on the study seriously as you try to dig yourself out of the hole you dug. At least you’re using the term “suspect” instead of “assure.”

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8637067]
Post #4. Since you started posting and an excellent study that cites literature. Huge sample numbers. And I even pointed it out to you.[/QUOTE]

That’s not a study. It’s an article/blog post ABOUT a study and there’s no data provided. It’s not specific to the issue being asked about on this thread, which is whether “show fit” condition mares have increased numbers of fillies. At least the study on the Australian horses is an abstract of a study, specific to horses, and specific to body condition on offspring sex. With all due respect, that article is interesting but not terribly specific to the question posed on this thread.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8637110]
One paper, citing dozens more on the topic. Really hard to take your spin on the study seriously as you try to dig yourself out of the hole you dug. At least you’re using the term “suspect” instead of “assure.”[/QUOTE]

The data from the very study you rely upon disproves that you want it to prove. You want to prove that “show fit” mares will have more fillies. That’s not what the study showed. It showed that very poor condition (body score 2 our of 5) mares had a statistical increase in fillies. Period. No increase in fillies for higher scores, which would be more akin to how we’re accustom to keeping domestic horses.

At body score 2, mares had more fillies.

At all other body scores, they did not.

In fact, at body score 2.5 they had more colts.

I can’t help it if the study you rely upon says something different than you want it to! It’s right there in the abstract.

If you want more fillies you have to starve your mare to a 2 body score until she’s pregnant. I don’t know any vets who would support doing that.

[Laurierace]

I believe Kathy St Martin’s record was 55 colts 0 fillies at one point and she does this for a living!

[RodeoFTW]

Why are you nitpicking? The OP asked for any ideas, which included ‘witch doctors’. I highly doubt she’s going to start starving her wonderful broodmares over the suggestions from random people online.