More hackamore questions

[Pocket_Pony]

@Fillabeana;7383295

So if you PULL laterally on a bosal, you will make a mess.

If you use the bosal with a lateral SIGNAL, it works just fine.

There is a beautiful photo of Martin Black, in his Cow Horse Confidence book, of Martin using a direct rein while circling a cow, showing a horse called White Eye in Elko in 1983. There’s a big loop in the rein- Martin is not in any way PULLING sideways.

Another photo at near the end of this video, cutting/boxing a cow in a hackamore horse, at 3:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYrRz58Ve_c

Okay, I just watched that video again (had actually watched it yesterday before I started this thread!) and in the first minute or so (:40 - 1:30), when he’s first on the horse, he’s showing flexions side to side and he’s doing what I would consider a pull/hold - am I mistaken?

How much pressure would you say is in a pull? How long would you say is a hold? And how is that different from a “signal”?

Any good videos of how a horse should go in the hackamore (vs. a training/how-to video with little snippets)?

[Wirt]

“So, of course you have heard, in a similar vein, that when your horse is wearing his snaffle outfit with mecate rein, that you ONLY do groundwork with the horse going counterclockwise, because if he is going clockwise and you pull on the mecate you will pull on the bit on the wrong side of his mouth and confuse him.”

Some folks don’t realize you can simply run the tail of your macate through the snaffle ring on the right side, and move him around you clockwise, without that little problem…

[re-runs]

My leading rein is not accompanied by a pull. If the horse is not following my focus and feel then I make sure that I move the hindquarters over so that, not only does that give me the horses attention, but it points the horses head in the desired direction that I want to go.

[Fillabeana]

Okay, I just watched that video again (had actually watched it yesterday before I started this thread!) and in the first minute or so (:40 - 1:30), when he’s first on the horse, he’s showing flexions side to side and he’s doing what I would consider a pull/hold - am I mistaken?

He’s taking the slack out, he’s got the heel knot up, but his pull, or hold, is not so much physical but rather mental.
He’s got as much physical pressure on the bosal there as you can have without taking a hold of it against the horse’s ‘resistance’ (which is where the horse can learn the wrong thing…to pull against you).
The horse isn’t really actively ‘resisting’, but rather holding on to the idea that he doesn’t want to turn his head.
Martin waits for him to turn his head laterally at the poll joint, to tuck his jaw into his neck, to release the brace at his poll- NOT to bring his nose around to the stirrup.

I had to pretty much toss out the idea of ‘contact’ as it is commonly used in the dressage world…just put it on the back burner and forget about it for a couple of years…for this to make sense for me.
Because while you can fairly easily get ‘pressure and release’ going, it is way too easy to turn that into always taking as much pressure as it usually takes to get the horse to turn his head. Or tuck his nose. And that is going to build a brace in your horse EVERY time.
What you have to do instead, is get that pressure and release working, until the NEXT step, which is your horse feeling back to you so that you don’t take a hold of him physically. And you make sure you WAIT there for him to GIVE to you, if he’s not yet committed to feeling back to you, making arrangements to move as you’ve asked without bracing against anything.

I think ‘throw the contact away’ western riders can get in an equally problematic, but different trap by teaching the horse to ‘flee’ or escape from pressure. If you always reward the horse giving to the pressure, but don’t get him mentally OK, don’t get him GIVING UP THE BRACE, get him on a feel…you teach him to just capitulate in a hurry when you put pressure on.
At this point, you can get a really compliant horse…which is not a compliment in this context. What you have, instead, is a horse who is really motivated to get the he!! out of your way before the $hi! comes crashing down. That can feel like ‘lightness’, but it isn’t- the horse is mentally walled off from you, trying to stay out of your way and not trying to help you, feel you, connect with you.

[Fillabeana]

How much pressure would you say is in a pull? How long would you say is a hold? And how is that different from a “signal”?

You don’t have to actually pull to be pressuring a horse.
You hold, you wait, until the horse gives. At the very, very beginning, you’re going to have to reward the slightest try, which might mean you have the horse on a halter, and there is perhaps 20 pounds of pressure on the lead rope (which to be the ‘right’ amount of pressure, is going to be exactly the same pressure it takes to meet the horse at what pressure he has given against you, because you can’t simply overpower him if you’re going to teach him something about giving, rather than ‘I can overpower you so resistance is futile’), and the horse goes from 20 pounds to 19.9 pounds.
So you release.
And you take a few deep breaths, you let that process in his computer and yours, and a minute or 20 minutes or an hour later, or maybe tomorrow (depending on the situation), you present pressure on the halter lead again.
Let’s assume the horse gives you 20 pounds again as what it takes to meet him at the right place.
He’ll probably give sooner, and more, like to 10 pounds or 5 pounds. So you release, and let that soak.

And you continue to present that, and the horse starts giving right over to zero.
The next thing that happens, is the horse looks for ‘what happens before what happens, happens’ and you take a feel of the lead rope, and the horse prepares to give to pressure, and in fact gives before you put physical pressure on the rope.

The next job is to get the horse giving not to a physical, take-the-pressure-off-the-rope give, but to get the horse to give sideways, via the hindquarters stepping over or the jaw tucking, in a way that the horse releases a brace.

You can do that in a sidepull or snaffle bit, and start with a physical pull.
Or, once the horse really understands, you can put a bit of ‘ask’ or signal on the rein (sidepull, snaffle, bosal, anything) without a physical pull, and address the horse’s brace THERE, and wait for him to give.

You have to address the horse’s MIND, you are asking him to GIVE to you, and that can be done without physical pressure.

This is what Martin is up to in the video portion you posted, he does have some physical pressure on the bosal but it is not a pull on the rein. Once his horse gets to where he gives without physically putting pressure on the bosal, he has the horse on a feel…so he’s done with that and goes on to something else.

For more…

Here, Buck discusses lateral flexion, and how we don’t want the horse tipping its nose out of plumb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiTFFei1tTo

There is LOTS more here, from Dr. Deb Bennett at the George Morris clinic last January (2013). You have to search through before you get to the streaming videos, they’re pretty long but quite valuable:
http://www.usefnetwork.com/featured/2013GeorgeMorris/

[Fillabeana]

So another way to answer your question, is that the horse and the situation determine ‘how much pressure’, how much ‘pull’, if any at all, and ‘how long’ to pull or pressure.
And you ALWAYS give a signal first. That is the ‘polite’ part of getting a horse on a feel, to where he does not resent what he is doing.
That signal might be taking the slack out of the reins in a snaffle or sidepull, before you pull on the rein.
It might be shifting your weight, or bringing your legs out away from the horse, before you bump, kick or squeeze with your legs.

If you use the pressure, the squeeze, the little kick, as your signal, your horse will end up resentful or annoyed.

[Fillabeana]

Some folks don’t realize you can simply run the tail of your macate through the snaffle ring on the right side, and move him around you clockwise, without that little problem…

Thanks, Wirt. That can be quite helpful if the horse doesn’t understand what you are asking. Sure easier than going back to get your halter.

But if you always have to switch your mecate when you switch sides in groundwork…you’re missing something important.

[Fillabeana]

My leading rein is not accompanied by a pull. If the horse is not following my focus and feel then I make sure that I move the hindquarters over so that, not only does that give me the horses attention, but it points the horses head in the desired direction that I want to go.

Ooooh, thank you, re-runs, that one got me thinking!!

So, if he’s not following your feel, you’re going to go to moving his HQ, that’s a great way to break loose the mental brace.
Is that where you’re going?

[Pocket_Pony]

Thanks, Fillabeana, I think I was just confused over the word “signal” - as if it meant something that I didn’t know. But now I get it and I do use signals, so to speak, that indicate that something is coming, and if Mac and I are together, then the signal is mostly all I need. For example, if we’re doing our walk warm-up and I’m doing turns where I focus on moving the shoulders, I signal with the “thing that happens before the thing happens” (I love that way of thinking of it and I had an a-ha moment about it a month or so ago that really has helped me) by opening my inside leg as he steps down with his outside front. And then a split-second later as I want to ask him to turn, he’s already there to meet me. Or, it could be me sliding my hand down the rein before I pick it up or something like that. Very helpful, thank you.

I have talked to a trainer whom Bill Black told me about, who is doing a hackamore clinic so I’m very excited to move forward!

And on a side note, which I know is not related but I just have to share since I went through such saddle-fitting drama, Mac loves his new saddle! He is so very forward and free through the shoulders and he loves to stretch out and go long and low on a loopy rein (something that he usually doesn’t do), he almost bounces me out of the tack the way he uses his back! But I have discovered that despite my desire to look like a cowgirl with jeans and boots, I just can’t ride in them so have to stick to my full chaps! Sidenote over…:winkgrin:

[re-runs]

“So, if he’s not following your feel, you’re going to go to moving his HQ, that’s a great way to break loose the mental brace.
Is that where you’re going?”

Yes, it is just like when you ride a corner of the arena and you put your inside leg back, you are not only /keeping/getting the horse`s attention (preparation) but, as you put your leg back, you set him up to face the track that you want him to take, either down the short side or the long side or even across the diagonal. Move the HQ over to place the forequarters, to focus, to the place you plan to go. I do not fiddle with my reins much, because when I pick up on the rein I want that to mean something important to the horse, otherwise it can become just backround noise and you make the horse dull, even if it “appears” to some observers to be functioning. THE RIDER will/should feel the difference of ease.

In dressage they say “you want the ear of the horse” which means his attention. Asking the horse to move his HQ (feet) gets his attention and supples, it sets him up to succeed in performing, in this case, a corner.

I come from a dressage backround, “Outside leg back, inside leg at the girth” was pounded into my brain from my first lessons. It was a real mindshift when I learned this better way. Even after I watched Ray Hunt and Buck talk about it, I still clung to what I thought that I knew because that is what I was taught. When I sent a colt to be started to one of Bucks assistants and got such a supple horse back after just two months, I gave up that little voice in my head of "outside leg back" for a much more meaningful and better way of communication that the horse could easily understand in so many ways....Talk about a lightbulb moment!.......it had been a long time coming. Like Tom Dorrance would say and Ray Hunt after him and Buck after him and now my colt starter, and now me........Its the little things that mean so much." and “It`s so simple that it seems complicated.”

May I add…to those dressage people that worry about keeping the withers up,… if the horse is balanced and working with any degree of self carriage, asking for the hindquarters to move over, isn`t going to dump him on the forehand, nor will they have to worry about the horse dropping the inside shoulder.

“A horse lives what he learns” and if he has learned this way to be from the very beginning, even when he was first halter broken, then this is how he will operate.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7385169]
Thanks, Wirt. That can be quite helpful if the horse doesn’t understand what you are asking. Sure easier than going back to get your halter.

But if you always have to switch your mecate when you switch sides in groundwork…you’re missing something important.[/QUOTE]

What would that be?

[Fillabeana]

Wirt, you shouldn’t have to pull on the mecate once you have educated your horse as to what you mean. You should be able to direct.

If you always PULL on the rope, you are taking responsibility and a thinking response away from your horse.
Have you ever heard Ray Hunt, talking about a person who has had that taken away…always responding, ‘I dunno’ in a given-up, stoopid sort of voice?
Kind of seems nice at first to have a horse that responds quietly to pressure all the time…but you then realize that your horse isn’t participating much.

And, if you do have to pressure your horse by taking hold of the mecate to pull it and wait for his release, the horse should again already know what you mean, such that the bit pulling on the ‘wrong’ side of his mouth doesn’t confuse him.

You might also have the horse run into his own pressure on the end of the mecate, you can set that up also.

If your horse DOES get confused, which some do, by the bit pulling through their mouth in a funny direction, you go back to the halter (or the mecate through the bit) to ‘explain’ more clearly.

If you get off to open a wire gate, you should be able to send the horse right through from either direction, with your mecate…without threading it through the ‘right’ bit ring.

[Fillabeana]

Re-runs, thank you.
I think there should be some sort of psychological counseling for former dressage riders, learning to let go of the outside-leg-back idea!

[Fillabeana]

Pocket, that is a great description of ‘prepare to position for the transition’

I can ride in jeans and boots just fine…if I have my breeches on underneath!

[froglander]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7387228]
Re-runs, thank you.
I think there should be some sort of psychological counseling for former dressage riders, learning to let go of the outside-leg-back idea![/QUOTE]

Yes to this, lol. I was getting myself into more of a habit of inside leg back to move the hindquarters over, and lately I’ve found that I’ve slipped back into more of an outside leg back and asking him to turn. I get so confused as I /do/ want to pursue “dressage” but all of this intrigues me as well

[Pocket_Pony]

Bosal ordered, clinic deposit sent - wooo hooo!

Any feedback on mecate materials (horsehair vs. alpaca)?

[Pocket_Pony]

@Fillabeana;7387206

Have you ever heard Ray Hunt, talking about a person who has had that taken away…always responding, ‘I dunno’ in a given-up, stoopid sort of voice?
Kind of seems nice at first to have a horse that responds quietly to pressure all the time…but you then realize that your horse isn’t participating much.

I have a very semi-related story in that I used to work for these people who were micro-managers to the nth degree and they would change the rules all the time. Everyone hated working for them and they made our lives miserable. It really gave me an appreciation for what horses must go through when we are inconsistent in our requests and training approaches. Some (people and horses) get mad but do it, some shut down, some fight back.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7387228]
Re-runs, thank you.
I think there should be some sort of psychological counseling for former dressage riders, learning to let go of the outside-leg-back idea![/QUOTE]

YES!! That and “taking contact.”

[Fillabeana]

Yeah, the whole micro-manager boss thing tends to make the peons Never Try Anything For Fear Of Doing It Wrong.

As for materials of mecate…
Mane hair is prickly. It can take some time of getting over ‘I hate this, it’s so prickly’ before you realize you actually Love It. I just put gloves on and tolerated it, missing my Freckers Treeline mecate on my snaffle rig…and at the end of the (10 hour) ride, realized how nice the manehair was.

Other than that, the mohair and alpaca aren’t prickly, and some people like them well. I’d guess if you tried them out, you’d choose mohair or alpaca over the prickles. People who know more than I do, say they don’t have the life of a manehair mecate, but they do work ok.

So I think, get what you like, and you’ll make it work just fine.
My supplier of choice is Greg Gomersall of Idaho:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Greg-Gomersall-Saddlery/108683979158876
He has stuff photographed for facebook, but no catalog or official webpage. You can also ask him questions, he will give you an honest answer (not just the one you want to hear, or the one that sells his most lucrative item). I send him a check or give him my credit card, and whatever I order shows up pretty quick by priority mail.
Greg will definitely have some mecates in stock.

If you have a good credit card, you could order a few mecates, feel them in your hands, and send back all but the one you like best.
But they’ll probably all work, just don’t tie on an orange and blue baling-twine mecate!

[Fillabeana]

Yeah, the psychological help thing…
I have my own rationalizations.

As far as ‘outside leg back’, I think the ‘Dressage Masters’ (the good ones) know exactly how a horse is supposed to feel, when it is bent properly on a circle or into a corner. The problem is, they don’t know that a horse balanced that way, freed up of braces, MUST step is hind end to the outside of the curve to stay balanced.

And I think they also know what a horse who is feeling back to you, through the reins feels like. They know what it feels like to have JUST enough on the reins, that it feels like they are holding the bit resting on the horse’s tongue, and the horse is focused with them, partnered with them, responding to suggestions and intent without pulling the reins.
My rationalization about the ‘importance of contact’ paradox, is that the Dressage Masters just don’t know that feeling is possible without the physical contact.
I’ve felt a ‘draping rein’ just a handful of times, and it is so extraordinary a feeling. Dr. Deb Bennet calls it ‘other than’ tight or loose reins. The difference in feel to me, has been like the difference between a nice trot and a passage (though the passage in question was instigated with the neighbor’s alpacas!).

Frog, I think it will get better with time. When you get more clear and aware of how the horse is moving, your timing with requests especially with shoulder-in, leg yield, things like that, you won’t feel like you are supposed to ‘hold’ the haunches from swinging outwards…because you know you’re ASKING for the haunches to swing outwards, and that pesky outside-leg-back thing will melt away.