Multiple Trainers Conflicting Advice

[sascha]

@Giddyin

The new BO trainer wants me to give my outside rein around the corners and if I use the outside rein to block the shoulders from falling out and it works then release it to reward by throwing the contact away with that hand.

This can be a thing. But, it is only a thing if you are suppling the horse and teaching that they can and should shift their balance at will. It may help to think of it not so much as blocking the outside shoulder but as unweighting and freeing the inside shoulder which in turn allows the inside hind to follow suit.

This concept follows through all the way up the levels, but gets more and more subtle as the horse becomes more and more responsive and more and more balanced.

Another way to think of it is that when you’ve flexed/bent your horse to the outside to more evenly weight the shoulders, for that moment, the rein that is on the outside of the corner or circle becomes your inside rein. When we get a response to an inside rein, we give. Always.

And that said, there are many, many people who are convinced that the rein on the outside of a curve always acts as the outside rein and thou shalt not ever stray from the edict of inside leg to outside rein. For me, the way I was taught, that over-simplification just doesn’t work and tends to riders hanging on the outside rein and working far too hard to get their horses straight, even and evenly supple.

And that said, there are many paths up the training scale

I don’t know if you’ll be able to reconcile what appears to be a difference in philosophy between the two trainers, but you might if you get that one is spelling things out for you and the horse in Kindergarten block letters and the other is taking a more subtle approach that may not always fully explain every nuance they use in their own riding.

[MapleBreeze]

Beautiful post! And just to add to the subtle and nuiansse, someday op you might be asking with your seat bone and releasing/soften the outside rein when the horse gives to your seat.

I mean…you are asking with your seat before the rein right?

It also depends on the horse - if they tend to close the poll more it might be a bigger release than one that doesnt not.

[Scribbler]

@atr

Not to be persnickety, Scribbler, but its through third level for bronze.

Which is a fine riding achievement in its own right, but its not a measure of training ability.

Ack. I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure out where I got the idea Bronze was 2nd level which sent me to the Equine Canada database, and while they talk about the Rider Achievement Awards I can’t find a link the information about what levels count as what. I feel like Canada Bronze used to be Training to Second Level, so lower level than USDF but now I’m not even sure it exists anymore. Totally off topic here but I’m going to tag @BigMama1 who is in Ontario where more people pay attention to these things and ask her.

[Knights_Mom]

Under whose instruction does the horse feel better afterwards?

[BigMama1]

@Scribbler

Ack. I went down a rabbit hole trying to figure out where I got the idea Bronze was 2nd level which sent me to the Equine Canada database, and while they talk about the Rider Achievement Awards I can’t find a link the information about what levels count as what. I feel like Canada Bronze used to be Training to Second Level, so lower level than USDF but now I’m not even sure it exists anymore. Totally off topic here but I’m going to tag @BigMama1 who is in Ontario where more people pay attention to these things and ask her.

Equestrian Canada eliminated that program so I can’t confirm, but IIRC you needed scores at First and Second. The Canadian medal program was quite different from the US one.

And I agree with the posters who say a bronze medal is a nice riding achievement, but not an indication of training or coaching ability. I have a lovely, well-trained schoolmaster and could likely get the scores required up to Third for a bronze medal on him. But I have zero training experience and my only teaching experience is with beginners.

Proof is in the pudding. What level are this trainer’s horses at and has she brought them along herself? Does she have other students with a track record of moving up a level year after year? If so, she probably has a pretty good idea what she’s doing. If her own personal horses and all her students get permanently stuck at First or Second, that’s a big red flag.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Giddyin

There’s a lot of differences the biggest one is she wants me to get my 4 year old steering with the outside rein and always have a contact with it and accepting it. The new BO trainer wants me to give my outside rein around the corners and if I use the outside rein to block the shoulders from falling out and it works then release it to reward by throwing the contact away with that hand.

These things are so situational. If the horse is counterflexing or counterbending to the outside, you may need to do something about that. Or perhaps the BO wants to make sure that you are not simply hanging on the outside rein.

I would ask for how long she wants you to give with the outside hand. If she wants you to drop the contact permanently or for a long time, then that doesn’t sound right.

[dotneko]

Im of two minds with this question. Yes, contact with outside rein needs to be maintained, but as you turn a corner, you must allow the turn with the outside rein.
Not give it away, but allow. If you do not allow the shoulders to turn, you will end up counterflexed and put the horse on the inside shoulder.
Think of having a popsicle stick between your two hands. On the long side, the popsicle stick is perpendicular to the rail and horse - in alignment with the shoulders.
As you turn, your first signal to the horse that he is allowed to turn is a small release with the outside rein. It determines the size of the turn or circle - the amount of allow. The inside leg maintains the bend and keeps the horse from falling in. Your popsicle stick is now at an angle to the rail and horse because your outside hand goes forward while your inside hand stays the same (never, ever comes back)
I think perhaps there is a miscommunication and the truth is in the middle.
Yes, steering is with the outside rein, but that doesnt mean the contact is rigid.

[SuzieQNutter]

@dotneko

Im of two minds with this question. Yes, contact with outside rein needs to be maintained, but as you turn a corner, you must allow the turn with the outside rein.
Not give it away, but allow. If you do not allow the shoulders to turn, you will end up counterflexed and put the horse on the inside shoulder.
Think of having a popsicle stick between your two hands. On the long side, the popsicle stick is perpendicular to the rail and horse - in alignment with the shoulders.
As you turn, your first signal to the horse that he is allowed to turn is a small release with the outside rein. It determines the size of the turn or circle - the amount of allow. The inside leg maintains the bend and keeps the horse from falling in. Your popsicle stick is now at an angle to the rail and horse because your outside hand goes forward while your inside hand stays the same (never, ever comes back)
I think perhaps there is a miscommunication and the truth is in the middle.
Yes, steering is with the outside rein, but that doesnt mean the contact is rigid.

I am afraid I do not agree at all with this.

Basically if the horse and rider do not know, the reins are used for turning and stopping only. The legs are used for going forward and never the twain should meet.

In this scenario the inside rein is used and if you use the outside rein the horse will turn to the outside as stated in the quote above.

When the horse understands contact and is in the outside contact, which all starts with the riders seat and legs and the rein is NOT used to pull the horses head in, then the turn is equal to a quarter of a circle. In this situation if more outside rein is used it means a smaller circle, which means a sharper quarter of a circle, remembering there are no straight lines in a circle.

So you can prove your inside rein. This means slightly giving your inside rein as a reward and you prove that the horse is in the outside rein. If he is solely in the outside rein like this it is possible for you to circle with maintaining the outside rein and giving the inside rein, because more outside rein moves the horse in to circle.

I hope that is not as clear as mud.

[Mardi1]

@Giddyin

It’s just a bit confusing as I truly do not know the correct answers which is exactly why I’m taking lessons.

Is it possible at your new barn to take the required lessons on another horse, thereby saving your green horse for the more experienced trainer ?
Riding a variety of horses has its own educational value for riders, and the consistency of using the experienced trainer would benefit the OTTB in the long run.

[Annie_Burton]

@Mardi1

Riding a variety of horses has its own educational value for riders, and the consistency of using the experienced trainer would benefit the OTTB in the long run.

True, true.

Young horses deserve to be trained (at least) consistently, with good basic confidence (by you) in the basics (for him). OTTBs are special cases in that they have been trained (for something else) and need to be REtrained actually, so they might not be the ideal young horse to learn on how to train a young horse. I have seen accomplished dressage riders unable to deal with thoroughbreds’ needs and inherent talents.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think the advice of riding another horse seems like the easiest option. Alternatively, does Susie bronze medal do good pole work lessons or could help you and green Evan gain confident hacking out by riding on another horse with you?

if you need to do flat lessons on your own horse you can also just be super bad at following advice that you think is questionable.

[dotneko]

@SuzieQNutter

@dotneko

Im of two minds with this question. Yes, contact with outside rein needs to be maintained, but as you turn a corner, you must allow the turn with the outside rein.
Not give it away, but allow. If you do not allow the shoulders to turn, you will end up counterflexed and put the horse on the inside shoulder.
Think of having a popsicle stick between your two hands. On the long side, the popsicle stick is perpendicular to the rail and horse - in alignment with the shoulders.
As you turn, your first signal to the horse that he is allowed to turn is a small release with the outside rein. It determines the size of the turn or circle - the amount of allow. The inside leg maintains the bend and keeps the horse from falling in. Your popsicle stick is now at an angle to the rail and horse because your outside hand goes forward while your inside hand stays the same (never, ever comes back)
I think perhaps there is a miscommunication and the truth is in the middle.
Yes, steering is with the outside rein, but that doesnt mean the contact is rigid.

I am afraid I do not agree at all with this.

Basically if the horse and rider do not know, the reins are used for turning and stopping only. The legs are used for going forward and never the twain should meet.

In this scenario the inside rein is used and if you use the outside rein the horse will turn to the outside as stated in the quote above.

When the horse understands contact and is in the outside contact, which all starts with the riders seat and legs and the rein is NOT used to pull the horses head in, then the turn is equal to a quarter of a circle. In this situation if more outside rein is used it means a smaller circle, which means a sharper quarter of a circle, remembering there are no straight lines in a circle.

So you can prove your inside rein. This means slightly giving your inside rein as a reward and you prove that the horse is in the outside rein. If he is solely in the outside rein like this it is possible for you to circle with maintaining the outside rein and giving the inside rein, because more outside rein moves the horse in to circle.

I hope that is not as clear as mud.

I disagree that more outside rein makes the circle smaller. It would tend to block the outside hind just as you are asking for it to travel farther. I didn’t say to use inside rein to initiate the circle, so not sure where that came from.
In any event, there is more than one road to Rome.

[pluvinel]

The use of the “direct or opening” rein vs the “indirect” rein depends on the level of training of the horse and rider. How the rein effects are applied is a continuum, depending on the horse and the rider’s equestrian tact.

Back in the dark ages, riders were taught the 5 Rein Effects. These are covered in Gordon Wright’s and George Morris’ books. I have Wright’s book and it is pretty much a direct copy of the US Cavalry Manual (which I also have) used in the US Remount Service.

I could not find the Cavalry manual on line, but from this Glenshee article, some classic references to the 5 Rein Effects with some postable illustrations

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Annie_Burton

OTTBs are special cases in that they have been trained (for something else) and need to be REtrained actually, so they might not be the ideal young horse to learn on how to train a young horse. I have seen accomplished dressage riders unable to deal with thoroughbreds’ needs and inherent talents.

I read thru these posts just to see if anybody would say exactly that. Thank you.
Plus, this horse is FOUR. Yes, we want the horse to learn to accept and carry contact. In an OTTB, it may take you years… yes, years… to accomplish, if ever. My own is quite happy if I just leave her face alone, period, I can ride her from my seat and legs almost entirely. Just how she is.

[pluvinel]

@Giddyin

There’s a lot of differences the biggest one is she wants me to get my 4 year old steering with the outside rein and always have a contact with it and accepting it. The new BO trainer wants me to give my outside rein around the corners and if I use the outside rein to block the shoulders from falling out and it works then release it to reward by throwing the contact away with that hand.

Instead of thinking this very mechanically, and binary …inside or outside… think of the advice as a continuum.

Think of this like a personal trainer instructing a client on how to adjust or hold their body to correctly perform an exercise. Sometimes the trainer will need to use more “contact” to place the person’s body in position…other times, the trainer can use a simple “touch” to guide the person thru the exercise.

The advice to use the inside rein is pretty standard process for training a young horse. The direct (eg., inside) rein is used to start to develop steering. Contact is not “static”. Eventually there will be a balance between inside and outside reins depending on the horse’s training and what you are asking it to do.

Think of the “contact” and whatever rein (inside or outside), as just doing what is the minimum needed to correctly balance the horse thru whatever exercise you are asking it to do.

[exvet]

I ride regularly with three people. Two have their gold medals et al (all their bars too). The third has her bronze and silver on a horse that, believe it or not, I trained from the ground (purchased as a 2 year old) and sold to one of her clients at age 14 after I earned my silver; so, a little different scenario than most. All three have been through the L judging program and one has been a USEF S judge for at least a decade. The three all ride with each other occasionally - eyes on the ground for each other. They all bring something a little bit different to the table, but their overall approach is complementary and similar. Because they all know each other (we’ve all gone out together as well) and know I’m their ‘student in common’ I can, without insult or disrespect ask for clarification if I think something is conflicting or confusing. So, I’m the type to choose a program and find those consistent with that type of a program.

I actually train/ride/compete two horses and have also found that of these 3 individuals, they each do ‘better’ with one or the other of my horses but that’s not a surprise to me. Humans and animals have their preferences. As to the why I ride with 3 people - availability of their time first and foremost. It helps to get the perspective of one actively judging (person A who is often unavailable due to her judging and coaching schedule). The one who is competing actively with CDI eligible mounts (person B who is very accomplished, very good trainer and instructor but is gone when she shows) is a master at biomechanics. The third one (person C) has the best dam eyes on the ground and a bazillion exercises in her back pocket. Of course, person C has more availability, and she will watch my lessons with the others on occasion and then help me keep on track.

I do want to point out that while I agree a bronze medal is a great accomplishment (I’m certainly proud of mine and the efforts it took to get it), it doesn’t have any bearing on one’s ability to train or teach BUT just because a person doesn’t have their silver or gold or, or, or any other public accolade does NOT mean that person isn’t good at teaching/training nor does it confirm a lack of knowledge. Some of those I’ve had the benefit of learning the most from either didn’t have any medals or just had their bronze.

I will not sacrifice my horses’ wellbeing. I would not ride with any of the three if I felt that it was to my horses’ detriment. I would approach a problem like yours from two angles. First, I would ask for clarification from the bronze medalist, and I would do so with video in hand. I often will find things eye-opening when I view a video and compare it to what I thought I felt. I think this might be the only way to get on the same page to determine if the bronze medalist has a valid point to teach that isn’t counterproductive. I would also review the same video with the higher level/more accomplished trainer and ask the same of her/him. Being the type of person I am (often too abrupt and direct for most) before viewing the video I would tell each what I’m doing and why I’m doing it. If either has a problem with it then I would go to plan B and that is find another means to keep my boarding spot - ride another horse in lessons, see if lunge lessons on another horse is an option, pay the extra but don’t ride, pay bronze medalist for her time to come watch lessons with the other trainer and then pay her to be ‘my eye on the ground’ with the agreement/focus that she is to help maintain a consistent program - it can be done if all parties are agreeable. Also, I would be beating the woodwork for a plan C which would be looking for a private facility with space/turnout, ie another viable boarding option.

[NerdyHorseLady]

Thank you for sharing the diagrams, I’ve learned some great terminology to explain some concepts I didn’t have the words for previously.

[SuzieQNutter]

@dotneko

@SuzieQNutter

@dotneko

Im of two minds with this question. Yes, contact with outside rein needs to be maintained, but as you turn a corner, you must allow the turn with the outside rein.
Not give it away, but allow. If you do not allow the shoulders to turn, you will end up counterflexed and put the horse on the inside shoulder.
Think of having a popsicle stick between your two hands. On the long side, the popsicle stick is perpendicular to the rail and horse - in alignment with the shoulders.
As you turn, your first signal to the horse that he is allowed to turn is a small release with the outside rein. It determines the size of the turn or circle - the amount of allow. The inside leg maintains the bend and keeps the horse from falling in. Your popsicle stick is now at an angle to the rail and horse because your outside hand goes forward while your inside hand stays the same (never, ever comes back)
I think perhaps there is a miscommunication and the truth is in the middle.
Yes, steering is with the outside rein, but that doesnt mean the contact is rigid.

I am afraid I do not agree at all with this.

Basically if the horse and rider do not know, the reins are used for turning and stopping only. The legs are used for going forward and never the twain should meet.

In this scenario the inside rein is used and if you use the outside rein the horse will turn to the outside as stated in the quote above.

When the horse understands contact and is in the outside contact, which all starts with the riders seat and legs and the rein is NOT used to pull the horses head in, then the turn is equal to a quarter of a circle. In this situation if more outside rein is used it means a smaller circle, which means a sharper quarter of a circle, remembering there are no straight lines in a circle.

So you can prove your inside rein. This means slightly giving your inside rein as a reward and you prove that the horse is in the outside rein. If he is solely in the outside rein like this it is possible for you to circle with maintaining the outside rein and giving the inside rein, because more outside rein moves the horse in to circle.

I hope that is not as clear as mud.

I disagree that more outside rein makes the circle smaller. It would tend to block the outside hind just as you are asking for it to travel farther. I didn’t say to use inside rein to initiate the circle, so not sure where that came from.
In any event, there is more than one road to Rome.

Yes there are more ways to Rome and as I said you start with using the inside rein to turn.

Using the outside rein is advanced and can take years to learn.

Case in point if you are in a correct shoulder in and apply more inside rein. It proves the shoulder in was correct, when the horse magically circles.

[strangewings]

@sascha

me, the way I was taught, that over-simplification just doesn’t work and tends to riders hanging on the outside rein and working far too hard to get their horses straight, even and evenly supple.

I am this rider, working hard to overcome this tendency now. Many lessons with many quality, capable, high level riders - i followed the letter of what they said, but am talentless, so missed the forest for the trees. I have had 2-3 unprompted comments from others over the last 10 years to the effect of “your seat is good, i don’t understand why you hold the reins so much” - i.e. i am clearly not balancing on the reins and do have an independent seat.

OP, i am in the camp of just ask. You, the horse, and the trainers’ preferences all matter. Both options may be addressing different issues. Consider which of the two has more green horse experience too. I’ve been on a lot of green horses where giving the rein is done in a very deliberate way, both to give them room to bend and to let them make mistakes.

[sascha]

@strangewings

Many lessons with many quality, capable, high level riders - i followed the letter of what they said, but am talentless, so missed the forest for the trees.

Don’t sell yourself short. If no-one ever mentioned that all the trees you were learning about were part of a forest, you couldn’t see it because you had no idea it even existed.

And in defense of teachers, it is not always easy to communicate these things when they don’t understand that the rider doesn’t even know what a forest is.