Please Jessica, is it really fair to call me a beginner who doesn’t know the difference between a gallop and a canter? I consider that an uncalled-for attack. :no:
My question about Western riders was not rhetorical. I am really asking what’s the difference here. Are they braver? Is Western riding less dangerous? What gives.
It wasn’t an attack. It was an observation - based on your previous posts.
All I wrote was out of a sincere concern for your safety.
Riding a horse is dangerous - and foxhunting is extremely dangerous. I don’t want to read a thread titled, “Please pray for wanabe…”
Western riding is dangerous too and many western style riders wear helmets. Since they don’t jump, that risk factor isn’t present. The person I mentioned in my post wasn’t not wearing headgear when he fell.
But it’s only a matter of time before even the best rider takes a tumble. I’m not saying we’re all supposed to go around with bubble wrap, or not jump or gallop. Just wear a safety helmet to help mitigate the chance of head injury.
Head injuries just don’t heal well. I’ve had concussions - one from just hitting my head on a branch I didn’t see until it was too late. I’ve administered first aid to fallen riders. Many times. It’s not funny when someone can’t remember their name or is unconscious and unresponsive.
I just don’t want you to get hurt.
Who knows why those folks don’t treasure their brains.
You would however, be pointing out to your fellow hunters that you are somebody with nothing much to protect!
Fair’s fair, though: how many pictures do we see all over magazines and catalogues like Horse & Hound, Covertside, Horse & Country, etc, where a fair number of the better-dressed riders are wearing immaculately custom-tailored Patey-type helmets? No, helmets like that haven’t passed any safety tests, but they are part of a certain “look.”
So, perhaps the OP has seen those same pictures, and is being led astray 
by the look portrayed?
A big part of foxhunting is “the look,” which is arcane and charming. Hence the endless discussions here on this very BB about turnout. If “the look” truly didn’t matter, then we’d wear mud-coloured machine-washable everything, right?!
I like to think that hunt fashion should be a fluid, dynamic thing, certainly with its roots in tradition, but gradually moving ahead in terms of modern materials and thinking.
We now know that the damaged from multiple concussions is accumulative, for instance, therefore wearing something to protect your brain can’t hurt, and may even help you one day.
These Pateys?
The made to measure Patey Hunt Cap is famous throughout the world as a cap suitable for Hunting, Dressage and Showing.
Finished in the finest velvet, we offer a range comprising of three styles and seven colours: Black, Navy, Light Grey, Dark Grey, Brown, Green & Burgundy. Alternatively, you may prefer to supply your own fabric. Each Cap is individually shaped to the riders head, so providing the perfect fit.
We are proud to be the Official Supplier of Hunt Caps to Team GB
Hunt Cap £420. With Harness £440.00
Abigail Butcher, H&H news editor
23 October, 2008
RECOMMENDATIONS that hunt staff can continue to choose to wear a “traditional” Patey hat or a “modern” hat with a chinstrap are being well received.
This summer, the Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA) carried out a review of headgear, prompted by concerns from some masters over the safety of traditional strapless hats worn by most hunt staff (H&H news, 1 May).
MFHA chairman Stephen Lambert said: "I’m very pleased we can continue to give people the choice. We wanted to, but only if it was safe to do so.
“We’ve been responsible, undertaken research and advice and are able to give people the choice.”
In the first industry consultation of its kind in 17 years, the MFHA surveyed hunt staff, conducted safety tests on Patey hats, analysed accident records and consulted with insurance, legal and health and safety experts.
It concluded that hunt staff should be allowed to choose between wearing a modern hat (with attached chinstrap) or a traditional one. But, should staff plump for the traditional hat, they must wear a Patey and comply with set recommendations (see details below).
“The crucial thing is that if staff decide to wear a traditional hat, they are not asked to sign a disclaimer,” added Mr Lambert.
Following tests on the Patey by the Transport Research Laboratory, the MFHA said the lack of padding in the sides of the hat is a “significant area of weakness and would increase the risk of injury to the side of the head”. But it concluded the Patey had “performed competently” according to accident records from the past 10 years.
The MFHA said a “modern” hat had been described as uncomfortably hot on warmer hunting days, and posed a risk of neck injuries in undergrowth or branches, being unlikely to come off if struck by a branch.
MFHA hat recommendations
‘Traditional’ hats must be:
Made by Patey and correctly fitted
Checked by Patey at least every three seasons and after any fall
Allowed to dry naturally for 36 hours before being worn again, so any huntsman hunting three or more days a week should be provided with a second hat
Paid for by employers
Staff should not be asked to sign a disclaimer
‘Modern’ hats must:
Carry British Standards Institute Kitemark BSEN1384 PAS015 or American Kitemark ASTMF1163
[QUOTE=Romany;3894875]
Fair’s fair, though: how many pictures do we see all over magazines and catalogues like Horse & Hound, Covertside, Horse & Country, etc, where a fair number of the better-dressed riders are wearing immaculately custom-tailored Patey-type helmets? No, helmets like that haven’t passed any safety tests, but they are part of a certain “look.”
So, perhaps the OP has seen those same pictures, and is being led astray by the look portrayed?
A big part of foxhunting is “the look,” which is arcane and charming. Hence the endless discussions here on this very BB about turnout. If “the look” truly didn’t matter, then we’d wear mud-coloured machine-washable everything, right?!
I like to think that hunt fashion should be a fluid, dynamic thing, certainly with its roots in tradition, but gradually moving ahead in terms of modern materials and thinking.
We now know that the damaged from multiple concussions is accumulative, for instance, therefore wearing something to protect your brain can’t hurt, and may even help you one day.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for being understanding. 
That’s exactly it. I am VERY traditional-minded, and I see the Munich/Patey style hunt caps in older photos. We also have OLDER MALE riders on our hunt who wear them.
When I created this thread I thought perhaps someone would explain to me why they really weren’t dangerous after all, but alas, that didn’t happen.
Then, I got to thinking about all the Western riders and wondered why they don’t seem to feel the need for protection.
equibrit – thanks for all that information on the Patey. 
You’re over the age of 18 so the choice is totally yours…
I would NEVER EVER spend $100 on the Munich Hunt cap which is not certified. Instead I’d go ahead and spend the $45 extra to get the entry level Charles Owen which IS approved and is also traditionally styled. You could also spend $10 less than the Munich hunt cap and get the Troxel Grand Prix Classic in the traditional look which is SEI certified.
Western riders don’t jump and don’t gallop for miles on unimproved and varrying terrain dodging tree limbs etc. So the need for a real safety helmet might not be there. However, there are ASTM/SEI approved helmets for western riders with the cowboy hat look out there and I’ve seen some western riders wear them.
[QUOTE=wanabe;3895815]
Thanks for being understanding.
That’s exactly it. I am VERY traditional-minded, and I see the Munich/Patey style hunt caps in older photos. We also have OLDER MALE riders on our hunt who wear them.
Then, I got to thinking about all the Western riders and wondered why they don’t seem to feel the need for protection.
equibrit – thanks for all that information on the Patey. [/QUOTE]
If you are truly “traditional minded” then you should know that hunt caps are not “traditionally” worn by the field.
They are worn by hunt servants. You’ll note the article on the Patey hunt caps refers to STAFF.
Members of the field wear bowlers or top hats depending on the occasion and attire.
And as I noted before - PLENTY of western riders wear certified helmets these days. If your hunt was “traditional” you’d not have western riders in your field at all.
Traditionally you’d use a cloth girth, no pad, sewn in bits, all kinds of things that you rarely see anymore (except maybe in appointments classes).
If you really want to be “traditional” then don’t emulate the folks in your hunt. They’re not turned out “traditionally” if they are wearing hunt caps and are not staff. If you don’t care about your safety - then just buy a proper bowler.
Quit arguing with me, Jessica! :no:
I said I was tradition-minded – not that I knew much about the traditions of foxhuntig. That just means that I like to honor traditions WHEN I KNOW THEM.
Also, you keep taking QUESTIONS on my part as some sort of rejection of advice given – when it isn’t at all.
And yes, I’ve given some thought to top hats and bowlers.
Not arguing at all.
Trying to tell you that a lot of people are wearing things that they think are traditional but aren’t. Or are inappropriate.
Hunt caps are for servants.
Bowlers and top hats for the field.
What we in the US consider “traditional” only really came about in the early 1900’s. Even in the holiest of holy’s - Virginia. These traditions were brought down from NY, as NY foxhunters came south to hunt in the winter.
I grew up wearing a hunt cap because that is what we all wore for all english style riding. In the summer I’d ride without a hunt cap because it was hot - but my instructors insisted upon a hunt cap when jumping - for safety reasons.
The ASTM/SEI helmet is simply an evolution of that thinking. Unfortunately for hunting it’s not in the right style for members of the field - though a certified bowler does exist.
Even in my hunt - which is very insistent upon good turnout (not expensive but correct), most of us are wearing helmets. For high holy days many of us will wear a top hat until we move off - then the top hat wearers will switch out to a helmet.
Many of these people are professional riders or have been riding since they were children. I’ve been riding for decades and even though I’m a strict adherent to “tradition”… I plop that helmet on my head without fail.
In the end it’s a personal choice, but don’t make it out of pure vanity. No one looks attractive drooling in a nursing home.
True, but you can’t see yourself drooling and aren’t aware of it, either.
Anyway, what you mentioned is where I was thinking of maybe going – wearing a Munich cap or top hat or bowler BEFORE starting off. The only hunter I’ve seen wearing a bowler did exactly that, in fact.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;3894880]
These Pateys?
The made to measure Patey Hunt Cap is famous throughout the world as a cap suitable for Hunting, Dressage and Showing.
Finished in the finest velvet, we offer a range comprising of three styles and seven colours: Black, Navy, Light Grey, Dark Grey, Brown, Green & Burgundy. Alternatively, you may prefer to supply your own fabric. Each Cap is individually shaped to the riders head, so providing the perfect fit.
We are proud to be the Official Supplier of Hunt Caps to Team GB
Hunt Cap £420. With Harness £440.00
Abigail Butcher, H&H news editor
23 October, 2008
RECOMMENDATIONS that hunt staff can continue to choose to wear a “traditional” Patey hat or a “modern” hat with a chinstrap are being well received.
This summer, the Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA) carried out a review of headgear, prompted by concerns from some masters over the safety of traditional strapless hats worn by most hunt staff (H&H news, 1 May).
MFHA chairman Stephen Lambert said: "I’m very pleased we can continue to give people the choice. We wanted to, but only if it was safe to do so.
“We’ve been responsible, undertaken research and advice and are able to give people the choice.”
In the first industry consultation of its kind in 17 years, the MFHA surveyed hunt staff, conducted safety tests on Patey hats, analysed accident records and consulted with insurance, legal and health and safety experts.
It concluded that hunt staff should be allowed to choose between wearing a modern hat (with attached chinstrap) or a traditional one. But, should staff plump for the traditional hat, they must wear a Patey and comply with set recommendations (see details below).
“The crucial thing is that if staff decide to wear a traditional hat, they are not asked to sign a disclaimer,” added Mr Lambert.
Following tests on the Patey by the Transport Research Laboratory, the MFHA said the lack of padding in the sides of the hat is a “significant area of weakness and would increase the risk of injury to the side of the head”. But it concluded the Patey had “performed competently” according to accident records from the past 10 years.
The MFHA said a “modern” hat had been described as uncomfortably hot on warmer hunting days, and posed a risk of neck injuries in undergrowth or branches, being unlikely to come off if struck by a branch.
MFHA hat recommendations
‘Traditional’ hats must be:
Made by Patey and correctly fitted
Checked by Patey at least every three seasons and after any fall
Allowed to dry naturally for 36 hours before being worn again, so any huntsman hunting three or more days a week should be provided with a second hat
Paid for by employers
Staff should not be asked to sign a disclaimer
‘Modern’ hats must:
Carry British Standards Institute Kitemark BSEN1384 PAS015 or American Kitemark ASTMF1163[/QUOTE]
Yes’m, those are they - fascinating article - and conclusions!
Loverly to look at, those Pateys, but handsome is as handsome does, as they say.
I don’t quite understand why staff must not be required to sign disclaimers - could it be because, after so many concussions sustained while wearing their pretty Pateys, grasping a pen could become challenging?
Charles Owen H2000Sq
I keep forgetting to add - the Charless Owen H2000Sq is not dissimilar in profile to a traditional Patey. When it’s on one’s head, it doesn’t look quite as sleek as a Patey, but what price BSEN1384 and PAS015?!
http://www.charlesowen.co.uk/en/products/ridinghats/index.php
Also forgot to note, Equibrit, the hunts that are now required to supply their staff with extra Pateys to allow the others to dry out must have very deep pockets!
Do not confuse the International Munich piece of garbage with a Patey. Pateys are custom made to fit the head of the wearer and most owners swear they stay on better than your more common approved helmets. If you want the look and are willing to pay to have a custom fitted hat then go for a Patey; if you want braces with your belt get a harness fitted on it. These are quality hats unlike those made by International.
This explains the need to dry out;
“With a heritage going back over 200 years, we are proud to say that our craftsmen still create hats using the same skills as in 1799.
Patey hard shell hats are hand crafted in the traditional manner using a Goss body, enabling us to shape a hat to your exact requirements and measurements.
Goss is formed from linen coated with coodle, a shellac based paste, which is then left for 5 months to cure.
A wooden block is made to the shape of the hat required. The Goss is cut into strips and ironed by hand onto the block. For a riding cap it takes five hours to apply enough layers to build up the required thickness.
The body is then left for a week to dry and the block removed. At this stage the hat is ready for trimming and finishing.
The flexible nature of Goss, when heated in steam, allows the finished hat to to be moulded to fit your head shape.
To enable a hat to be shaped to the persons head, we need to take a pattern of the head. This is done using a machine call a Conformature. From the print we get, the Conform Block is set to the shape of the head. This is then put inside the hat and it is then steamed. After steaming the hat is cooled down. During this process the hat takes the shape of the head. Once cooled the hat is fitted to the head. Further adjusts can then be made during fitting, to relieve any pressure points on the head.”
The reason the Munich is not approved is because it is merely a plastic shell covered in velevteen. Inside there is only a cloth strip and absolutely nothing that would deform in the event that your haed smacked the pavement.
[QUOTE=Equibrit;3897008]
Do not confuse the International Munich piece of garbage with a Patey. Pateys are custom made to fit the head of the wearer and most owners swear they stay on better than your more common approved helmets. If you want the look and are willing to pay to have a custom fitted hat then go for a Patey; if you want braces with your belt get a harness fitted on it. These are quality hats unlike those made by International.
This explains the need to dry out;
“With a heritage going back over 200 years, we are proud to say that our craftsmen still create hats using the same skills as in 1799.
Patey hard shell hats are hand crafted in the traditional manner using a Goss body, enabling us to shape a hat to your exact requirements and measurements.
Goss is formed from linen coated with coodle, a shellac based paste, which is then left for 5 months to cure.
A wooden block is made to the shape of the hat required. The Goss is cut into strips and ironed by hand onto the block. For a riding cap it takes five hours to apply enough layers to build up the required thickness.
The body is then left for a week to dry and the block removed. At this stage the hat is ready for trimming and finishing.
The flexible nature of Goss, when heated in steam, allows the finished hat to to be moulded to fit your head shape.
To enable a hat to be shaped to the persons head, we need to take a pattern of the head. This is done using a machine call a Conformature. From the print we get, the Conform Block is set to the shape of the head. This is then put inside the hat and it is then steamed. After steaming the hat is cooled down. During this process the hat takes the shape of the head. Once cooled the hat is fitted to the head. Further adjusts can then be made during fitting, to relieve any pressure points on the head.”
The reason the Munich is not approved is because it is merely a plastic shell covered in velevteen. Inside there is only a cloth strip and absolutely nothing that would deform in the event that your haed smacked the pavement.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, then; what do you wear on your head while riding to hounds, Equibrit?
A few of our older members wear Pateys, and they are competent riders. None of the less competent riders wear them. But most of our riders, of all levels of competence, wear ASTM, BSI, etc, approved helmets. And VERY occasionally one sees a top hat at the stirrup cup at posh days like the opening hunt, but it’s quickly swopped for an approved helmet before hounds move off.
A Thomas Townend.
For the person asking about getting a hunt cap for beagling or hound shows, I bought a nice, Swaine Adeney brown hunt cap on ebay. I love it and wear it while Basseting. There are others that wear the Charles Owens beagler and it is a lovely cap.
I wear a CO stadium jumper or Hampton for mounted hunting. My Hampton is brown for informal days.
I searched for a CO beagler on ebay with no luck. There aren’t that many out there.
But if you search you can find unapproved hunt caps on ebay reasonably priced.
[QUOTE=Painted Wings;3897521]
For the person asking about getting a hunt cap for beagling or hound shows, I bought a nice, Swaine Adeney brown hunt cap on ebay. I love it and wear it while Basseting. There are others that wear the Charles Owens beagler and it is a lovely cap.
I wear a CO stadium jumper or Hampton for mounted hunting. My Hampton is brown for informal days.
I searched for a CO beagler on ebay with no luck. There aren’t that many out there.
But if you search you can find unapproved hunt caps on ebay reasonably priced.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I got Sidesaddlerider’s Beagler cap…I cannot wait to see it!! Thanks for your info- the brown cap must look so smart
[QUOTE=Equibrit;3897497]
A Thomas Townend.[/QUOTE]
Must be a sight for sore eyes!
I doubt you’d be able to differentiate this cap from any other “traditional” type - sore eyes or not.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
