Mustangs used in World War I

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7944409]
What about this source?
http://sheldonhorses.wordpress.com/americas-war-horse/

I am not questioning the official breeding policy , concerning re-mount horses, but I find so many sources that document mustangs as being used as a resource to fill the growing demand for horses on the front during World War 1, that I find it hard to dismiss them all as urban legend.[/QUOTE]

Well, this link you furnished is an advocacy site, which is neither here nor there on the subject of military horses, but I often find more fiction than fact on various mustang advocacy sites. I’ve looked at a few other pages on this site and sorry to say, I’m not impressed, it is pretty much the Disney version of the history of feral horses. The author doesn’t list any references, and when you google on the name Harry Winton, you only get this same story on the site you’ve linked and one other mustang site.

When you explore the history of the Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge, at least only briefly as I’ve done, you get this from the Refuge’s web site:

“Prior to these lands becoming a national wildlife refuge, ranchers raised European horse breeds as working stock and as remounts for the U.S. Cavalry. When the need for saddle horses diminished at the turn of the 20th Century, these horse herds were released on lands that are now the Sheldon refuge and other public lands where they became free-roaming animals. Active interbreeding of feral horses with ranch horses continued well into the 20th century. A more thorough coverage of the history can be found in the EA.”

In contrast, you have this statement from the site you linked:

“During World War I, and into World War II, military cavalry contractor Harry Winton (sometimes referenced as ‘Wilson’) would roundup horses from the area now known as Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge. The horses would then be loaded onto railroad cars and shipped to the East Cost. From there the horses would make a trip across the Atlantic ocean by ship. Horses that survived the journey had a bit placed in their mouths and began to pull artillery or serve as a cavalry mount.”

If the implication is that this individual furnished horses to the U.S. Army, well, note the Society of the Military Horse quote above which pretty firmly states that feral horses were simply not used in the 20th century. Additionally, the remount procedures for procurement of horses at their remount depots have pretty detailed procedures on the acquisition and training of horses. It is not plausible to consider that they would have shipped unevaluated horses and slapped a bit in their mouth and had them pulling artillery. I don’t think I’d be crazy enough to slap a bit on an unbroken horse and try competing in some arena event, and it’s even less likely I’d want to try that sort of thing in a war zone, my life would already be on the line with people shooting at me, let alone trying to train a wild horse on the spot.

Now, maybe this individual shipped horses to someone, either a government or horse dealer in Europe. I could get to a feasible profit motive if someone ‘over there’ was willing to pay for a boatload of horses of unknown ability, who could simply sell what wasn’t useful for meat. Or, maybe this individual just bragged of selling horses in enough bars around the west that the legend stuck in folklore and some believe it’s true. Just don’t have enough info for this to be at all compelling.

Purely anecdotal tidbit, I know that my Belgian grandfather, at the end of WWI and into the 20s, had an assigned horse that was European, not from the U.S., and this of course after all of the carnage. I don’t have time to go back to that 1928 reference but it did give numbers of horses sent to and returned from the war if I remember correctly. The U.S. government did furnish horses to Europe prior to U.S. entry into the war, but these were horses procured by the U.S. Army following the same requirements as if they were to be used by the U.S. Army.

I know your information makes perfect logical sense, but I find it disappointing that books touted to be factual, like the ones I mentioned, are in fact not
I know one certainly can’t take everything at face value in these books, as I myself have read the de -bunking of Monty Robert’s book, by some of his relatives.
I also noted that many of the sources I found, were wild horse advocacy groups, although in those books I mentioned, many other facts seemed to be verified by pictures-such as the use of helicopters at one time to round up feral horses,and roping those horses and tying them to tires,by newspaper articles etc.
I also know that it sounds not very plausible to just slap a bit in the mouth of an un trained horse, and hook him to some equipement to pull
On the other hand, I have seen some 'quick old time horse ‘training’ techniques applied by people that had to use horses for a living, but were not horse people per say
One out fitter that I knew, took un broke horses to use for the summer, in exchange for their use. I will put the disclaimer in right now that those techniques produced a horse with huge holes in training, techniques I would never condone or use.
He would first use a running W to teach, ‘whoa’
The horse was snubbed to a saddle horse and ridden. The horse was then used on day rides, of course just following another horse, tolerating someone on his back. Because the horse was not shod until he became very foot sore, going over rocks, the horse had all his attention on shuffling along, and not on dumping the rider.
Of course, once these horses returned home, it was very obvious that they were not anywhere near broke.
I also know of Amish in the area that I grew up in, would take an un broke work horse and hook him up with a well broke horse
My step dad actually sent then a young horse to break to harness, and she came back with huge collar galls
While I am not suggesting everything written is accurate, and those horses, if they were indeed used, probably had a bigger crash course than written, might there still not be some truth in these accounts?
I have trained enough young horses, that I agree with you, that it seems not very plausible to ride a horse, esp in a war zone, without some extensive training

Anyway, ‘Mustang’ is still a good read, as it comes from the time Cortes first brought horses over, to the new world, to the present day wild/feral horse management controversy, which we also have here
I wish someone else here had read this book, by Deanne Stillman, as it brings up many supposed ‘fact’ that I previously was unaware of. One that I found interesting, is that some of the first conquistadors were Jewish, escaping persecution,
One reference she uses is The Hidden Jews of The southwest
, and another source, being Hernando Alonso, a Jewish Conquistador, plublications of the Jewish historical society
I know, off topic, but I was trying to find her war horse references.
One I did come up with, but have not read, that she listed is:
UNwritten Seventh Cavalry History, taken from middle boarderBulletin

another reference
THE cavalry and the horse

A good read anyway, and hope not too many facts were embellished or purely folklore!

i don’t want to appear fixated, but when I read books that are touted to be factual, as ‘Mustang’ tracing the history of those horses in the New World, then I feel compelled to either prove or disprove the contents!
If I am reading a novel or watching a movie, I expect exageration , inaccuracies, an Hollywood hype
If I am reading a book that is acting as a historical type of information source, I expect that book to be true to facts. If not, I am as ready as anyone else to de bunk the contents
It is thus disappointing that thus far, the references I have been able to access, are by feral horse advocates, thus some biases is going to be present.
I tried googling military records and mustangs, and all I have thus far come up

with, is the Smithsonian Institute, which lists Comanche

Here is what is says about Comanche

Defeat rather than victory brought fame to Comanche. He was known as the sole survivor of General George Custer’s command at the Battle of the Little Bighorn on June 25, 1876.

Of mustang lineage, he was born about 1862, captured in a wild horse roundup, gelded and sold to the U.S. Army Cavalry on April 3, 1868, for $90. The bay, 925 pounds, standing 15 hands high with a small white star on his forehead, became the favorite mount for Captain Myles Keogh of the 7th Cavalry. He participated in frequent actions of the Regiment and sustained some 12 wounds as a result of these skirmishes.
Apparently he was of mustang origin, captured during a round up. Only one horse, but still…???

http://sheldonhorses.wordpress.com/americas-war-horse/

Well, I’m sure the annual details on how and where horses were procured exist in the archives, the question is, has anyone done research and compiled it in a book. On Open Library there are a number of interesting books from the early 20th century that might provide useful info, I don’t have time to explore them much right now, but open library is a great place to just go randomly search for topics of interest, many old books are available there to read on line or sometimes, download. I’ve downloaded a number of 19th century foxhunting books from there over the years:

https://openlibrary.org/search?q=army+remount+horses

Okay, this first one that is readable on line I gave a quick skim, it’s from 1910 and has lots of interesting tidbits, including photos (but no mention of mustangs though I sped through quickly, there is reference to horses from Wyoming):

https://archive.org/stream/armyremountprobl00rommrich#page/124/mode/2up

And this one, published in Britain in 1918, includes discussions of buying horses in the U.S., it’d be a place I’d look for evidence of purchase of mustangs (one reference I spied in passing indicated their preference for the midwest U.S. draft breeds).

https://archive.org/stream/horsewarillustra00galt#page/32/mode/2up

Searching on U.S. Cavalry produced this list which contains a number of fascinating titles including a 19th century title on Custer, since you mention Comanche:

https://openlibrary.org/search?q=U.S.+Cavalry

Searching on ‘mustangs’ (and specifying horse so you don’t get cars), I see a book from 1942 by Thomas Hinkle that looks intriguing, it’s available to borrow but I haven’t bothered to set up an account yet.

It’s also worth rummaging around the Library of Congress web site but I don’t have time just now. Because I’m probably going to peruse the 1922 ‘Humane Horse Training’ I just found at Open Library:

[URL=“https://archive.org/stream/humanehorsetrain00thorrich#page/n25/mode/2up”]https://archive.org/stream/humanehorsetrain00thorrich#page/n25/mode/2up

As a part of the military “equipment” in WWI
MILLIONS of horses were needed and sent to Europe
very few returned
one obvious reason was the cost of shipping and the need for surviving horses to help rebuild

but the greater majority of the horses died in their service
Vet medicine was still in its infancy
trench warfare and mud were devastating on both men and horses - feet and hooves rotted
when the horse hoof was destroyed by the physical conditions then the horse was generally killed

there is a difference between the official Army Remount program and ranchers taking advantage of the massive need for horses
so it is entirely likely that they were breeding by turning out stallions and probably very little actual documentation exists
BUT remember the war lasted between 1914 and 1918 so there was not that much time to initiate a breeding program and growing up a useful aged horse to send

one other source for the horses was from the draft breeders
In the late 1880s-90s they had been breeding large drafts for the streetcar market in large eastern cities, then suddenly the streetcar companies converted to electric, so there was a glut on the market of these drafts
a goodly number of them were sold and shipped off to WWI for artillary and wagons. Most of them did not return

good discussion and thanks for the book tips

And BTW my sister reminds me that My Friend Flicka
Rab bred horses for the remount program
and Flicka’s Dam was of loco mustang strain

Thanks for the book tips. Hopefully, I will have time to look into them. I know I seem to have lots of time at the moment, which is true in part, as it is winter in Alberta, but today, I must once again dig some drifts!
Drive, I believe that your point of un official records could have a lot of truth, as the war killed so many horses, that I think near the end, desperation measures came into play, to replenish horse power , that the re mount breeding program alone could not full fill
Maybe all that is left of these un offical records, is personal accounts handed down through family history
I know that many re mount stallions were used,bred to ranch mares, as I think Bluely mentioned, as they appear in foundation lines of AQHA horses, recorded in the Legend series
This has nothing to do with verifying mustang was contributions, or course, just that I am some what familiar with the official re-mount program, but of course not based on any actual personal family history

[QUOTE=Drive NJ;7945868]
As a part of the military “equipment” in WWI
MILLIONS of horses were needed and sent to Europe
very few returned
one obvious reason was the cost of shipping and the need for surviving horses to help rebuild

but the greater majority of the horses died in their service
Vet medicine was still in its infancy
trench warfare and mud were devastating on both men and horses - feet and hooves rotted
when the horse hoof was destroyed by the physical conditions then the horse was generally killed

there is a difference between the official Army Remount program and ranchers taking advantage of the massive need for horses
so it is entirely likely that they were breeding by turning out stallions and probably very little actual documentation exists
BUT remember the war lasted between 1914 and 1918 so there was not that much time to initiate a breeding program and growing up a useful aged horse to send

one other source for the horses was from the draft breeders
In the late 1880s-90s they had been breeding large drafts for the streetcar market in large eastern cities, then suddenly the streetcar companies converted to electric, so there was a glut on the market of these drafts
a goodly number of them were sold and shipped off to WWI for artillary and wagons. Most of them did not return

good discussion and thanks for the book tips

And BTW my sister reminds me that My Friend Flicka
Rab bred horses for the remount program
and Flicka’s Dam was of loco mustang strain[/QUOTE]

What is a “loco mustang strain”?

Here, a loco horse is one that has been eating loco weed and is impaired, some so bad they have to be euthanized.

missed that ,and had to read twice!
Perhaps the Op made a typo, and meant local, but guess will need her to clarify!
No loco weed in Alberta, lol, but people considered mentally un balanced, often have the term 'loco tagged onto them
Ah, thanks to google, here is what I found, based on the Flicka saga
Of course, far as I know, My Friend Flicka was a work of fiction, in a trilogy horse series by Maureen O’Hara

Rob, once again, is annoyed with his son; this particular filly has a strain of mustang blood that makes her very wild – “loco”, in ranch idiom. The mustang blood comes from a wild horse called the Albino, named for his pure white coat. All the Goose Bar horses with this strain have been fast, beautiful, but untameable, and after many years of trying to break just one of them, Rob has decided to get rid of them all. Ken persists, however, and Rob reluctantly agrees to let him have the filly. When Rob and Ken go out to capture her, she tries to escape by attempting to jump an impossibly high barbed wire fence and injures herself severely.

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7946835]
missed that ,and had to read twice!
Perhaps the Op made a typo, and meant local, but guess will need her to clarify!
No loco weed in Alberta, lol, but people considered mentally un balanced, often have the term 'loco tagged onto them
Ah, thanks to google, here is what I found, based on the Flicka saga
Of course, far as I know, My Friend Flicka was a work of fiction, in a trilogy horse series by Maureen O’Hara

Rob, once again, is annoyed with his son; this particular filly has a strain of mustang blood that makes her very wild – “loco”, in ranch idiom. The mustang blood comes from a wild horse called the Albino, named for his pure white coat. All the Goose Bar horses with this strain have been fast, beautiful, but untameable, and after many years of trying to break just one of them, Rob has decided to get rid of them all. Ken persists, however, and Rob reluctantly agrees to let him have the filly. When Rob and Ken go out to capture her, she tries to escape by attempting to jump an impossibly high barbed wire fence and injures herself severely.[/QUOTE]

Loco is the spanish word for crazy, that is where loco weed came from, because cattle or horses that get addicted to it and eat too much, it is the first to green up here in the spring, so some will eat it, even if it is bitter and get addicted, those end up acting crazy.

Now, there, they were using it as just crazy.

I wonder what an impossible high barbwire fence is, since barbwire fences rarely are very tall, except maybe in the rare such cattle pen.
No one with any sense would put a horse that may not be quiet in cattle pens build with barbed wire fence, because that will injure one if they just run by it, much less hit it.

I think that story sounds mostly like fiction.

Yes, far as I know, those books are works of fiction.
I read them all as a child, including Thunderhead
We could start an entire new thread on inaccuracies in many horse books that are novels, and of course, in Hollywood films!

Far as barbwire itself, the book Mustang goes into how barbwire was first invented, and then used to fence off the range. There seem so many great historical facts in that book, and why I find it hard to dismiss it’s claim, far as mustangs being used in both the Boer Wars and World War 1
The detailed info of the great cattle drives, Wild Bill’s Wild West show,and movie horse such as Fritz , are all in that book. A very good read!

Surprising as to what google will find!
The book Mustang came up, with lists of references that the author used, so maybe have a look?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=h9EqWKDi9eAC&pg=PA339&lpg=PA339&dq=Mustang+horses+%2B+Boer+wars&source=bl&ots=p-Oqhluuge&sig=O8XiNp2qqZFi8plVdWbb-ZA6-Dk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kwGvVOSMDoyGyASjmoLICQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mustang%20horses%20%2B%20Boer%20wars&f=false

Also found this:

http://coloradowest.auraria.edu/book-review/wild-horses-west-history-and-politics-americas-mustangs

Thanks for those links, Bev, I just found out one can read those books on line!
Will try to go through them , as I get the chance

Your link on the Mustang book is for the index for the book, I looked up and down and he doesn’t include a reference list, per se. In the ‘notes on writing the book’ above the references, he does write out his sources, but other than one PhD dissertation I didn’t see anything that leapt out as primary reference material, indeed some references seem to be nonfiction.

As for the second link, the description notes that the author intentionally wants to persuade people to protect mustangs- and has a lot of familiar rhetoric. So without seeing whether the author included references in the book, I’d have to say just based on this snippet, I’m underwhelmed.

In particular he makes the argument that the wild horses introduced by the Spanish count as ‘native’ because previously there were horses on the continent that went extinct. From the biological point of view, I do disagree with that and am of the school that considers them to be nonnative in terms of the classifications for wildlife and range management.

Agree with all documentation that supports that horses were completely eradicated from the New World, thus r e-introduced, making them a non native species
However, as in all things, even that fact is in dispute, as some fossil remains, lead support to those that declare that horses were never completely eliminated from the new World
That is the avenue , of course, that feral horse advocacy groups are trying to use, to justify mustang horse as being truly native, , and not just feral
I did quickly read some of those links you gave BeV.
From the one source, I got the impression that the British military purchased horses for the US, and were mainly impresses by the light draught horses and mules. They found the riding horses inferior, and looking at the pictures, plus reading, many of both those mules and horses were not really well broke
They did make them into suitable re -mount horses /mules, but what came from America, were apparently horses and mules, not well broke, which horse dealers had gotten together.
Thus to me anyway, seems very possible that this group of horse included Mustangs with just very basic bronc training, as per history of Wild Horse Annie;s father,

Here is a good read,on the entire debate of horses being native to North America, or just feral

https://awionline.org/content/wild-horses-native-north-american-wildlife

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7947519]
Here is a good read,on the entire debate of horses being native to North America, or just feral

https://awionline.org/content/wild-horses-native-north-american-wildlife[/QUOTE]

That’s a good article; however he didn’t elaborate on what some of the consequences would be of declaring them to be native versus feral. I would guess that if they are technically wild animals, then they are subject to hunting and the same types of population control we do with other wild animals. I don’t see that going over very well. Changing their classification might result in a “worst of both worlds” scenario in that they are considered wildlife so you can’t exclude them from a geographic area, but because of sentiment, you can’t eliminate them either. I don’t know, just speculating.