My filly is abusive.

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933224]
I do appreciate all the input, even that which suggests I’m a bad owner. I’ll be the first to admit I’m not the world’s most competent baby handler. It seems like one day she’s fine and the next she’s a holy terror. ASB, I’ve been assertive before but the lesson apparently didn’t stick. It probably doesn’t help that I haven’t had much time the past few weeks to work on manners. That’s going to change, obviously. I’ve informed her that she’s insured and if she’s too naughty I’ll kill her and get the money… unfortunately, she wasn’t too impressed.

I’m a little paranoid about getting hurt after a long period of recovering from various horse injuries, so when she acts up I tend to run for cover when I know I should be beating her. I always worry that she’ll respond to a whack with a well-aimed kick. But then again, yesterday she didn’t try to kick when I hit her, so maybe not.

ETA: Is it safe to use a chain on a foal? I haven’t because I didn’t want to cause any actual harm. [/QUOTE]

amastrike, please take my comments from the place they come from: genuine concern. Ok? I am worried about you. In fact, my dread has been steadily mounting ever since you first posted about her “cheekiness” way back when she was (few weeks? one month?) old. At first it was all “haha, omg she’s a pistol”… and your posts have been getting more and more worriesome. I am seriously envisioning you leading her out of the barn one of these days, and suddenly she drops/twists her neck away from you, the leadrope is around her shoulder/side so you have lost leverage, she starts to hump and all of a sudden you’re on the ground, unconscious from a kick to the chin/face.

If my posts sound mean/harsh, it’s because i am getting a major sense of foreboding from your posts, like a crescendo of slowly building scary music in a horror flick, and I am WORRIED about you. :frowning: That’s all.

And no, rare is the youngster that will fight back if you “put the fear of god” into them. But that doesn’t mean just a quiet “thwack” with the whip - that means a thwack, a LOUD bellow/scream and waving arms. You don’t want her to “grudgingly” accept your authority cuz she happens to be in the mood to back down that day - you want her to go “OMG, mom is really scary, crap that was a mistake i won’t do that again”, and you need to SEE that in her facial/body expression.

Ok? And like Kyzteke said, please don’t be afraid to ask for some help.

I’m sorry if i made you feel like a bad owner. It just drives me nuts when people downplay their horse’s naughty behaviours (which you were sorta doing way back when she was tiny, cute fuzzy baby). Same goes for people who talk about their broodmares like “ahh, she’s a crusty old bat that likes to turn her butt to me at feeding time, but she makes nice babies so i LURV her”… grrr… that drives me BATTY. :lol:

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933224]

ETA: Is it safe to use a chain on a foal? I haven’t because I didn’t want to cause any actual harm.[/QUOTE]

I use rope halters and good sense when handling my youngsters. No as harsh as a chain, yet quite sufficient for most rowdy kids.

It’s perfectly normal for youngsters to challenge you, at least, IME. ASB’s foals seem out of norm IMO. :lol:

My foals will challenge me every once in a while… As they do with their dams and playmates, and get told to get lost. :wink: Every offense is to be dealt with appropriately. Kicking, striking and biting being at the top of the “no-no” list, while other inappropriate gestures such as using you as a scratching post shall be dealt with differently. Horses have a keen sense of fairness.

They are learning their boundaries and to behave like good citizens; think of our kids… No matter how many times you tell them not to do something, they will have to try it. :rolleyes: Then, they won’t do it again… or not, if it worked out for them. :wink:

OP, especially given your last post indicating that you were worried about getting hurt. Your filly is probably picking up on that…I would definitely enlist help from someone who knows how to handle young ones.

Edited to add: as ASB posted, we really do not want you to get hurt, and it sounds like it is leading that way.

I do not use a chain on a foal before weaning, but I do use a chain on weanlings. It is there only if I need it and I rarely do need it, but if something happens I have control

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933224I always worry that she’ll respond to a whack with a well-aimed kick.[/QUOTE]

She won’t if your discipline is appropriate to her crime. Be careful regardless, but they know far more then we credit them for.

Challenge me? Sure - my foals have tried to nip, plant their feet and refuse to go forward, hop around while being led, snake their necks, push into me in the stall, etc… that is ALL “challenging” behaviour - unfortunately most people view all that as “cutesie wootsie bubbly foal antics” and do nothing about it.

So yes, mine have never kicked me, bitten me, struck me, dragged me or slammed me into walls because all the “little” behaviours that are actually “tests”, and that would lead to worse things eventually, get dealt with - swiftly, and fairly. I also only breed mares that are sweet, easy, 100% respectful at all times and affectionate with people - and their foals pick up on that, which helps. When i am with my mares, their foals can see that I am CLEARLY the boss of their mommy. :wink:

Mine don’t either. I put up with absolutely nothing that is the slightest bit disrespectful. A toddler could handle my weanling.

Kyzteke and ASB–yes, she is a little hellion. I agree that having someone with a lot of baby experience would be a good idea, but there isn’t anyone. My schedule is tricky, so it would be almost impossible to arrange for someone to help me. Her behavior really has improved a LOT. I don’t want to sound like one of those “my little baby is perfect and never ever does anything wrong” owners. She isn’t perfect, she is bad sometimes. But in a lot of ways, she’s very good. She leads nicely (unless I’m asking her to walk through a puddle), we’re working on “whoa” and “walk”. She takes her dewormer like a champ. She’ll walk over a tarp and wear it, even all the way up her neck behind her ears. She’s learning to tolerate clippers. I can touch her everywhere, including in her ears and open her mouth. She’s getting pretty good about tying and crosstying.

There are definitely some lines I need to draw… staying out of my space unless invited is a big one. I let her get close if she’s being friendly about it, so that’s probably creating some mixed signals. I don’t think I really let her get away with any blatant misbehavior… other than when she kicked me and I hurt too much to hit her effectively. Does it seem likely that letting her do little things like getting in my space have given her the idea that she’s the boss?

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933316]
Kyzteke and ASB–yes, she is a little hellion. I agree that having someone with a lot of baby experience would be a good idea, but there isn’t anyone. My schedule is tricky, so it would be almost impossible to arrange for someone to help me. Her behavior really has improved a LOT. I don’t want to sound like one of those “my little baby is perfect and never ever does anything wrong” owners. She isn’t perfect, she is bad sometimes. But in a lot of ways, she’s very good. She leads nicely (unless I’m asking her to walk through a puddle), we’re working on “whoa” and “walk”. She takes her dewormer like a champ. She’ll walk over a tarp and wear it, even all the way up her neck behind her ears. She’s learning to tolerate clippers. I can touch her everywhere, including in her ears and open her mouth. She’s getting pretty good about tying and crosstying.

There are definitely some lines I need to draw… staying out of my space unless invited is a big one. I let her get close if she’s being friendly about it, so that’s probably creating some mixed signals. I don’t think I really let her get away with any blatant misbehavior… other than when she kicked me and I hurt too much to hit her effectively. Does it seem likely that letting her do little things like getting in my space have given her the idea that she’s the boss?[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to downplay what you’ve done with her - it’s all good, and i’m sure she has gotten a bit better with age. BUT - make no mistake, a lot of her “laidback” reactions are mostly due to her temperament - she sounds like a bold, pushy, inquisitive alpha, so naturally there isn’t much that will scare her and she will go through life not worrying about much because she views herself as the queen of her world - alphas do NOT lack confidence!

My first filly was like that too. The first time i turned the clippers on, i got no reaction. I reached up and went to do her ear fluff, and… nothing. She almost fell asleep on the crossties while i did it (she was about 6 months old). I don’t think that was my handling - that was just her personality! She was fearless!

The real “test” is the going to be the odd time Lily decides she doesn’t feel like doing something that day, like picking up her feet, or when you wanna go left and she decides it’d be more fun to go right. Unfortunately every time she wins (as Kyzteke and others said), even partially, you take 3 steps backward.

I learned in the “trial by fire” fashion, since my first homebred was just like yours. FULL of herself. Fearless. I never, ever let her “win” (unless you count the aforementioned crusty faces when i was picking/cleaning a raw wound). Sometimes that meant waiting her out for 20-30 minutes, sometimes i ended up with arms about ready to fall off (same as another OP mentioned), but I always, always, got my way in the end.

One time, when she was under saddle and we were on a solo hack, this meant getting my friend to hop in her truck, drive down the road and help me with my filly who had planted her feet and decided no way, no how, was she crossing a bridge. Nuh uh. Nope. I figured if i let her get away with saying no to that, what next? The entrance to a Dressage ring? The scary wash rack at a new barn? Nope - she had to go over that bridge. And she did, by golly. And it was never an issue afterwards.

Yes, little seemingly innocuous things like letting her get “all up in your grill” ( :lol: - that was awesome, who said that??) can mean disrespect. You are not her “buddy”, you are not her “playmate”, you are the BOSS. Capisce? If she comes up to you for scritches and she forces you to take one step backwards due to her body being so close, then she needs to get told (and this is where E_M’s advice to use appropriate discipline is good).

There is light at the end of the tunnel. It’s a matter of establishing yourself as alpha and channeling Lily’s energy and assertiveness in the right direction. Like you, if I slacked off in handling my first filly, even for a few weeks, she would get pushy/testy. Lily sounds extremely smart and bold and she will make an outstanding partner in competition if the groundwork is laid properly for her during her formative years. :yes:

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;5933065]
That’s generally not the accepted behavior theory on horses. They are widely accepted to test constantly within a herd, and while one horse is OFTEN the winner and may appear to consistently run things, the reality is that he is engaged in power struggles constantly.

Some horses will test authority (loudly) for the rest of their lives, some are relatively happy to submit even when there is a lapse in the alpha. Some horses require a lot more vigilance.

It’s really not very fair to say to this owner “it’s a shame you screwed up and got to this point, you’re going to have a hard time now. You should have done XXXXY and you’d be FINE.”

You can’t know that. All you know is that in recent incidents, this horse has gotten the idea that it has a great “in” and is taking advantage of that to assert her leadership. I do agree that it needs to be dealt with immediately and decisively…but lapses today are not necessarily indicative of some complete failure up to this point. A young horse kicking when you messed around with a scab…that’s not unreasonable to expect, even in a very well trained youngster.

Anyway OP, yes, the behavior is unacceptable, and if you can possibly try to intervene before it gets to a full fledged kick (or bite, or rear) then you’ll be much better off. Whatever you do as discipline needs to be easy for you to deliver, effective, and last until the horse changes his entire BEING from aggressive to submissive, looking to you for direction. Reward with a clear direction, followed by praise.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I don’t think the testing ever really stops. It may be so subtle at first that we don’t even realize it is happening, we ignore it and all of a sudden we have unwanted behavior we can’t ignore. I don’t think it will take carrying a stick/whip everywhere you go, but some solid groundwork that establishes you as the leader will help.

I’m sorry you got hurt :cry:

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933316]

I agree that having someone with a lot of baby experience would be a good idea, but there isn’t anyone. My schedule is tricky, so it would be almost impossible to arrange for someone to help me [/QUOTE]
Make the time - take her to a young horse clinic, hire someone to come in for a weekend or a full day… but figure out something, even if it’s just you going for “lessons” on someone else’s baby, & then bringing that knowledge back home to your filly.

If you need to carry a big stick & use that to reprimand, your horse does not respect you or recognize your leadership - do this as long as you need to (stay safe) but don’t assume it is the same as training your horse to accept/respect you.

I can touch her everywhere, including in her ears and open her mouth.

Nope you can’t - if that were true she would not have booted you without much greater provacation (eg, leg ripped open to the bone & even then, she’d’ve asked politely please don’t touch). You get to do the stuff with her that she doesn’t mind you doing, try doing all of the above when she’s in a mood & saying NO.

There are definitely some lines I need to draw… staying out of my space unless invited is a big one. I let her get close if she’s being friendly about it, so that’s probably creating some mixed signals.

Absolutely - the problem is that you can do so much of this with polite horses, so you don’t even realize they are inappropriate behaviors.
If she’s weaned & nothing else will work (re having someone in to help), send her out to a “trainer” for 30 days - go up once a week for handling lessons so you won’t undo the work when she comes back home.

Look around for a babysitter horse that will teach her some manners - this will happen 23 hours a day rather than the very limited amount ot human time; or best of all (& the hardest), place her in a herd: she will learn excellent horse skills & to jump puddles & run/walk through everything.

Useless Anecdotes:
Trainer has a filly born this spring that believes she will rule the world one day (maybe even tomorrow :lol:) - filly has been handled since Day 1 by a very knowledgeable horsewoman, & she is still full of sass & challenges her handler at every opportunity. Initially mom was soooo easygoing with the filly, finally at almost 6 months, mom started getting after her for manners.

Much more somberely, a local person died this summer in a similar situation - the kick connected with her jaw & broke her neck.

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933316]

There are definitely some lines I need to draw… staying out of my space unless invited is a big one. I let her get close if she’s being friendly about it, so that’s probably creating some mixed signals. I don’t think I really let her get away with any blatant misbehavior… other than when she kicked me and I hurt too much to hit her effectively. Does it seem likely that letting her do little things like getting in my space have given her the idea that she’s the boss?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Getting in your space is a lack of respect and the precursor to all the Very Bad Things. Nip it in the bud there so you don’t have to get hurt before you reprimand her.

There really isn’t a lot else she can do before she starts to actually hurt you. Stop the getting in your space immediately, because the next step is running you over (very dangerous) or kicking (very dangerous) or biting (very dangerous) or…you get the point. If she knows she can’t get in your space, she can’t do any of those things. That is why it is my #1 rule from day 1 with the babies. With all horses. It is your safety net when things go wrong.

This is all eminently fixable, just start now.

This is one of the few times I can jump up from my La-Z-Boy and offer my own two bits…

First of all OP, you are NOT a bad owner. You came to the people on this board and asked for help–that’s a sign of a concerned horseperson to me.

If you let your filly buffalo you and then talked about how cute she was to anyone who’d listen well, that’s another story. :wink:

[QUOTE=amastrike;5932820]
So apparently beating helps. Should I just carry a weapon at all times and use it generously? [/QUOTE]

First, I’d suggest changing your mindset. A crop isn’t a “weapon”, it’s a tool. You’re disciplining your filly and there’s a big difference between that and “beating”, which to me is whaling away on a horse with no regards to its reaction.

Even if you don’t carry a crop, you still have a pretty effective tool with you.

Your hand.

The next time she’s naughty, spread your fingers wide and give her a good smack. Don’t aim for her head–a fleshy part of her body is best, like a haunch or that little area on her side above her foreleg.

The surface area of your hand is large enough that even if you pizzaslap with all your might you’re not going to do any damage. And you’re going to make a sound bigger than a jumping bat but smaller than a rifle crack. Combined with making yourself skyscraper-sized and scary and threatening you should be able to get your filly’s attention for the few seconds it takes to deliver a good correction.

Don’t let her supposedly improved behavior, your schedule, or apparent lack of equine playmates lull you into the sense of “there isn’t anything I can do and besides, she’s OK”. This isn’t okay. Those moments when she’s misbehaving are all it takes for you to get another big bruise, or worse. If you don’t nip this in the bud NOW, do you really want to be dealing with this when she’s two or three hands taller and weighs an extra 6-700 pounds?

You seem like you really love your filly. Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

[QUOTE=armchair_Quaterback;5933787]
And you’re going to make a sound bigger than a jumping bat but smaller than a rifle crack. [/QUOTE]

This reminds me of the power of noise. :lol: I absolutely agree with the use of crop for these issues, but I also reflexively make this loud “Eh” noise verbally when my horses misbehave. It doesn’t take long before the youngsters learn that that noise is accompanied by a smack when they’re naughty, and after a while I just have to make the noise and they get big eyed and stop what they’re doing :lol:

amastrike, your baby was born around the same time as mine, and they were both our first bubs, right? I think I got lucky with Darcy, he’s really a relaxed little chap, he verges on a bit pushy so I make sure he stays in his place, sometimes not the easiest thing to do as he has the sensitivity of a lump of coal, and doesn’t really find anything scary. Sounds like your little girl is just a little bit more challenging and sensitive. Which will be excellent in the long run rather than my pet rock sitting out there in the paddock, but it does mean you’ll have a harder time laying down the ground rules, and it means it’s more important that you get it right.

I can answer this in terms of what I was prepared to do with Darcy if he had been difficult- and indeed, if he becomes difficult in the future and I can’t deal with it- send her to a professional trainer. Someone who can confidently handle her every.single.day and keep her in her place, get them to give you lessons with her and help you to assert yourself. She’s just a bub now, but when she’s 16hh it won’t be so easy. That’s always foremost in my mind with Darcy, I don’t want him to do anything now that I won’t like once he’s more than just 14hh.

My weapon of choice is a lovely stout crop with a popper that makes a nice loud sound. Little Miss figured out pretty quickly that the rules have changed. Went to get her, made her back away while I shut the gate and got her halter. Coming into the barn, if she barged into me she got smacked. She tried to rush into her stall for dinner, another good smack and back up. Brought her in, took the halter off, and made her stay away while I brought in her dinner. She wasn’t allowed to eat until she got back and waited. When I came back to put her out again, she didn’t even try coming forward when I opened the door. She waited without approaching me to be haltered. She tried barging into me on the way out. A couple smacks didn’t work, so I ended up poking her hard in the neck with the butt end of the crop. That did it. She promptly got away and stayed an arm’s length away from me. At no point did she challenge or threaten me. She accepted the discipline with a “okay, okay, you’re the boss, but what’s gotten into you?!” We’ll see if she keeps it up…

[QUOTE=selah;5932986]
I never do anything to my youngsters that their mothers wouldn’t do to them…our tools are just different.
My mares would no more put up with a youngster kicking them and getting in their space than I do. They are not abusive about it, but they also don’t spend much energy discussing the infraction politely:lol:[/QUOTE]

VERY well said. This is exactly true. Your crop won’t hurt her. But her kick could most definitely hurt, even kill you. Hit the leg in the right place severing the femoral vein or the deeper femoral artery, and you’ll bleed out.

Consistency is the key. Horses are not allowed to lean their shoulders in toward you, curve their rib cages toward you, curve the hips toward you, stomp their foot, swish their tail, shake their heads in response to something you want them to do, roll their eyes while curling their lips, click their teeth, flick their ears at you.

You expect her to be pleasant and accommodating. She is 2 now and it’s well past time she learned what is expected.

Pay attention to her body language. She is bossing you and you aren’t yet recognizing it, so then she takes it a step further. And then that gets a response from you, so try to learn the cues and be consistent, because inconsistency tends to cause world war III.

A kick deserves the smack with the crop, but then take it a step further, drive her away from you for about 3-5 feet. Just like boss mare would.

Spend some time watching the boss mare of the herd. Not only does she make pointed direct eye contact with the offender, but she makes clear her intention, AND CARRIES THROUGH driving the offender away and out of her space for the sufficient distance she deems to be appropriate for the infraction incured. Offender knows in no uncertain terms that he/she has crossed the proverbial line and is not to make the same infraction twice. If it is a repeat offender, said boss mare will really go after the offender. Then if you notice, she drops her behaviour. Like the infraction never happened.

Boss mare behaviour is all you need to copy in your every day dealings with your filly. Discipline for infraction, then put it behind you and think no more on it.

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;5933028]
You asked us in your OP if you “need to put the fear of God into her” - then you say you have been assertive with her. Which is it? Either you have been assertive (and put the fear of God into her), or you haven’t. Horses are simple creatures, they either see you as alpha, or they don’t.
Whether you realize it or not, you are obviously letting her get away with small things (possibly: pushing into you, pinning her ears at feeding time, swishing her tail when you go to do something she doesn’t like, dragging you a bit while being led, whatever!), and as long as you keep doing that, she will continue to escalate things whenever she feels like it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this, exactly.

It’s a learning process. Take some time to learn the body language and you’ll have a better time with your filly.

In essence, you are NOT a bad owner. You are a learning owner. This is a good filly to teach you exactly what you need to learn. :slight_smile:

Keep it cool, discipline effectively without anger and without frustration. They do not understand frustration.

Know your rules, teach her those rules, and never once let her step over those lines. Not even for a nanometer.

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933903]
Little Miss figured out pretty quickly that the rules have changed. Went to get her, made her back away while I shut the gate and got her halter. Coming into the barn, if she barged into me she got smacked. She tried to rush into her stall for dinner, another good smack and back up. Brought her in, took the halter off, and made her stay away while I brought in her dinner. She wasn’t allowed to eat until she got back and waited. When I came back to put her out again, she didn’t even try coming forward when I opened the door. She waited without approaching me to be haltered. She tried barging into me on the way out. A couple smacks didn’t work, so I ended up poking her hard in the neck with the butt end of the crop. That did it. She promptly got away and stayed an arm’s length away from me. At no point did she challenge or threaten me. She accepted the discipline with a “okay, okay, you’re the boss, but what’s gotten into you?!” We’ll see if she keeps it up…[/QUOTE]

YEAH, atta girl!

Now keep that up - at all times! Pretty soon there will be no smacking or barging or crusty faces.
Just remember this: every time she tries to barge past you, drag you, crowd you, swing her butt even remotely in your direction, she’s saying “get the **** outta my way, woman!”. If you remember that, then you’ll get miffed every time she does it (oh no you DI’N’T!!) and you’ll remember to DISCIPLINE her for it. :lol: :wink:

I absolutely abhor disrespectful behaviour - and that goes for equines, felines, canines, ANY animal. I spoil them ROTTEN and cater to every whim and need, so they had better darn well respect me - at all times. No exceptions. :cool:

[QUOTE=Wayside;5933829]
This reminds me of the power of noise. :lol: I absolutely agree with the use of crop for these issues, but I also reflexively make this loud “Eh” noise verbally when my horses misbehave. It doesn’t take long before the youngsters learn that that noise is accompanied by a smack when they’re naughty, and after a while I just have to make the noise and they get big eyed and stop what they’re doing :lol:[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, me too (except I say Ah-ah! with a bit of a growl on my voice). Once I saw my gelding (my firstborn- but about 3 yrs at the time) untying himself and I was way down the aisle so I yelled at him and he immediately stopped and looked away. This cowboy nearby said, “wow, he actually listened to you” To which I replied, “You’re darn right he did!” :lol:
My current foals are almost 6 months and they have my “mean sound” long since figured out.

I absolutely abhor disrespectful behaviour - and that goes for equines, felines, canines, ANY animal. I spoil them ROTTEN and cater to every whim and need, so they had better darn well respect me - at all times. No exceptions.

Yup, yup! :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=amastrike;5933903]
My weapon of choice is a lovely stout crop with a popper that makes a nice loud sound. Little Miss figured out pretty quickly that the rules have changed. Went to get her, made her back away while I shut the gate and got her halter. Coming into the barn, if she barged into me she got smacked. She tried to rush into her stall for dinner, another good smack and back up. Brought her in, took the halter off, and made her stay away while I brought in her dinner. She wasn’t allowed to eat until she got back and waited. When I came back to put her out again, she didn’t even try coming forward when I opened the door. She waited without approaching me to be haltered. She tried barging into me on the way out. A couple smacks didn’t work, so I ended up poking her hard in the neck with the butt end of the crop. That did it. She promptly got away and stayed an arm’s length away from me. At no point did she challenge or threaten me. She accepted the discipline with a “okay, okay, you’re the boss, but what’s gotten into you?!” We’ll see if she keeps it up…[/QUOTE]

sounds great! well done. :slight_smile:

On ASBJumper’s last point, my horses are perfect gentlemen but I have no earthly idea of how to make my felines respect me. :lol: We all have our limits.

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;5934057]
sounds great! well done. :slight_smile:

On ASBJumper’s last point, my horses are all saints but for the life of me I have no earthly idea of how to make my felines respect me. :lol: We all have our limits.[/QUOTE]

Re. felines: spray them with water if they misbehave… :wink: You’ll never see a cat get off the kitchen counter as fast! Quick, painless… and long-distance-capable. :winkgrin: