My final straw

[Texarkana]

@dressagetraks

Wasn’t there a jockey in a major steeplechase many decades ago who had a rein break and still finished the steeplechase? People thought it was fantastic, but I remember thinking reading that, yikes! In a steeplechase, over fences, with other racers around? Thank God there wasn’t a big crash.

ETA: Found it. Fred Winter, 1962, Grand Steeplechase de Paris, on Mandarin. The bit broke. He won, but I still cringe thinking of racing like that.

It is absolutely cringe-worthy, yet he was rewarded. One could argue it was a different time, but I imagine the public reaction would be similar if it happened today. The story would go viral!

There was an episode of the MLE podcast where a rider who I will not name was trying to share an inspiring story of overcoming adversity. I hope I don’t botch the details too badly, as it was a few months ago when I heard it. In summary, the horse qualified for what was then Rolex (now Land Rover Kentucky), then became injured. The horse lost training time and fitness, but miraculously recovered just before the event. The rider decided to still go. They get to KY and the horse became mysteriously ill, yet rebounded just before the inspections and first jog. Rider decided to continue onward. I want to say something else flukey happened after dressage that I can’t quite recall, but the rider still decided to go XC and completed the event despite the odds.

The rider seemed to think this was a tale of not giving up and following your dream. All I could think was that this rider was lucky to still be alive, heading into the most difficult event in the US on an under-prepared horse in the midst of multiple physical setbacks. Yet “all is well” because this time, nothing bad happened. Rider now gets to claim then 4*/now 5* status. Rider is celebrated as a Rolex finisher. Yet IMO, if this MO is typical for rider, rider deserves to be driven out of the business before horse or human gets killed.

These stories are not uncommon in the horse world. You could probably find a similar tale in every discipline, including racing. These people are remembered as great, fearless competitors. Geniuses who knew their animals so well they knew it would be okay. Yet one false move and it would be an entirely different story.

Does any of this apply to Mongolian Groom? I have no idea. But any time there is a tragedy, “was this avoidable” becomes part of the conversation.

[Bluey]

Does any of this apply to Mongolian Groom? I have no idea. But any time there is a tragedy, “was this avoidable” becomes part of the conversation.

I think the story about some riders going to extremes at times is not in reference to these races, but a side track due to the comments about the eventer with the broken rein and hitting the solid wall.

The gist of this thread is that we have seen enough wrecks in racing as it is televised and some wonder if they want to watch any more.

That is a decision everyone will need to make for themselves.

[Texarkana]

@Bluey

I think the story about some riders going to extremes at times is not in reference to these races, but a side track due to the comments about the eventer with the broken rein and hitting the solid wall.

The gist of this thread is that we have seen enough wrecks in racing as it is televised and some wonder if they want to watch any more.

That is a decision everyone will need to make for themselves.

I know.

But in another thread, a poster was insinuating the MG tragedy was avoidable.

Earlier in this thread, another poster brought up the “yeah but what about eventing deaths” line of thinking, which started me on my whole tangent.

While comparing upper level eventing and racing is like comparing apples and oranges, I do think there are some pertinent parallels. Namely that they are both sports with a higher-than-average number of catastrophic incidents, and those incidents range from completely unavoidable accidents to heavily human-influenced outcomes.

Where to draw the line with one’s support for such a sport is a completely personal decision.

[charismaryllis]

Barbaro did it for me for several years. I was at a watch party at the barn and we all saw it and said Oh my god, that’s going to be the end of him. Didn’t even watch the triple crown for a while. I started cautiously watching a few races a few years ago, waiting for another breakdown. Turned on the BC on a whim last night. 😥

[OverandOnward]

Everything we do has some degree of risk, and at a high level of performance the risk is greater.

Even those who play the piano while seated in one spot have risks of tendon and ligament damage, and other problems they know better than I do.

Is it worth it? That answer depends on who is being asked. Some of the performers would rather take the risk than be deprived of the experience.

With horses, of course we are making the decision for both ourselves and the horse. But these horses are bred for this, and their exuberant high while performing shows that they feel the purpose in their blood.

I don’t know if there will ever really be an answer. Everyone has their personal limits.

If enough sensible people decide that too many boundaries are being crossed, then support will withdraw and the sport will diminish, perhaps eventually fade away altogether. Whatever sport it is.

Is racing losing the support of the general public? Have too many people reached their limit with racing? I think that may depend on how much public support racing needs to keep going. Because a great many people in the U.S. are already barely aware that horse racing even exists. They woke up to it slightly during the American Pharoah and Justify wave of publicity, then forgot about it again. Racing continued regardless.

[snaffle1987]

I didn’t get to see any of the breeders cup races but decided to tune in for the classic before I went to bed. I regret that decision immensely. I wasn’t going to watch at all knowing what has been occurring at SA. I can’t even justify to myself why I flipped to the channel to watch at this point.

I didn’t initially see MG take the bad step but I saw Tyler Gafflione on War of Will stand in his irons and watch behind him as MG faded away to the back as he was pulled up. I cant only imagine what was coming out of his mouth as he saw that when he was supposed to be driving his own horse to the finish line. Then I saw it and then I immediately was sick to my stomach.

I will admit that MG’s jockey, Abel Cadillo, did a tremendous job steadying him, keeping him straight and upright, and safely handling the horse to not cause any other catastrophic accident to the rest of the field. He should be commended for his actions.

I understand why they wanted to wait to put him down, they hauled him back to the hospital and did full sets of radiographs before the decision was made. The poor horse should’ve been put to sleep on the spot. Instead he was hauled away to be put through the ringer in order to justify the path that was taken. This sickens me just as much as him breaking his leg.

I don’t know what else to say or do anymore. Maybe we should look at the fact that this 4 year old was making his 11th start this year. Maybe we should look at the fact that he started in a race almost every month since He turned 3, twice racing within the same month. He sat out in 2018 in Aug, Sept, Oct and came back in Nov 2018 to race on Nov 10th and Nov 29th.

Maybe we should look at the fact that Acclimate, also a Gelding, was the only other horse on Breeders Cup day to race as strenuous a schedule in 2019. Acclimate raced 12 times since January. 6 times in 2018 (he didn’t race at 2 or 3)

Maybe we should look at trainers like Aiden O’Brien who sounded off like a whiney brat because one of his horses was vet scratched because the vets determined it was unsound when jogged in front of them. Instead of admitting something may be wrong and investigating it for the horse’s sake, Aiden responded with “she jogged up just as she always does but we must play by their rules here”. Trainers are not veterinarians. Let the veterinarians do the jobs they are professionals at. the horse JOGGED UNSOUND and was scratched by the professionals whos job it is to look out for the welfare and health of the animals. This isn’t a matter of “playing by the rules” here. The horse should be first and foremost.

And before ya’all jump on my back like a pack of rabid wolves, I genuinely believe that the majority of the people within the industry care about the horses in their care or ownership. If they didn’t, the industry wouldn’t exist. But some sort of reform needs to happen for the sake of the horse’s being sent to the track everyday and for the sake of the entire industry.

Accidents happen. Horses are fragile creatures. Accidents happen in all aspects of the horse industry. But at what point does the industry unite and say enough is enough. What number of equine fatalities is considered enough. In my world, we are way beyond that point. Santa Anita pulled out all the stops and had 30+ veterinarians on staff thoroughly checking over every horse prior to race day. a Few were vet scratched. But even all of this effort and expense proved not enough. Was there something under the skin that was not visible to the naked eye of the vets that proved ultimately fatal for Mongolian Groom? We wont know. Despite all of this effort, a horse died in the biggest race, on the biggest stage of the year in the stretch run and right in front of the entire crowd. I feel like there is some higher power trying to say something with this. The writing was on the wall and unfortunately one hard knocking nice Gelding is gone.

[Bluey]

“I feel like there is some higher power trying to say something with this.”

What a strange idea that quoted above.
Surely there are no higher powers that would sacrifice horses just to communicate with humans?

I think that racing is trying very hard to study why every horse gets injured.
There are some answers as of now.
Hopefully someone will find what else can be done.

As the track veterinarian spokesperson said in the news this morning, this made the national morning news, with horrible video of injured horse being shown repeatedly, the goal is to get any injuries to zero, when the newsman asked how to reduce those.
Eliminate racing and there won’t be horses injured racing is what PETA representative was saying.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

I understand why they wanted to wait to put him down, they hauled him back to the hospital and did full sets of radiographs before the decision was made. The poor horse should’ve been put to sleep on the spot. Instead he was hauled away to be put through the ringer in order to justify the path that was taken. This sickens me just as much as him breaking his leg.

So you feel that Mongolian Groom should have been euthanized immediately over sedating him and giving him meds to control pain while rads were taken to be sure the correct diagnosis was made??

But some sort of reform needs to happen for the sake of the horse’s being sent to the track everyday and for the sake of the entire industry.

Since you are so sure reform needs to happen, what is your proposal to address equine fatalities at the racetrack?

[snaffle1987]

@Bluey

“I feel like there is some higher power trying to say something with this.”

What a strange idea that quoted above.
Surely there are no higher powers that would sacrifice horses just to communicate with humans?

I think that racing is trying very hard to study why every horse gets injured.
There are some answers as of now.
Hopefully someone will find what else can be done.

As the track veterinarian spokesperson said in the news this morning, this made the national morning news, with horrible video of injured horse being shown repeatedly, the goal is to get any injuries to zero, when the newsman asked how to reduce those.
Eliminate racing and there won’t be horses injured racing is what PETA representative was saying.

I don’t agree with what any of PETA says. its PETA’s objective to have no animal owned by a human. They will stop at nothing. And they have a large pull in the liberal governments and the media. They will end horse racing in California. Mark my words. It may not happen this year or next; but they will.

@Where’sMyWhite If you want a very graphic video of what happened and its aftermath, and not the miniscule clip that was shown on national TV, PETA has paid for and uploaded a very high quality video of the entire event (to further their agenda) from the point of the bad step to the point in which he was loaded on the trailer. If you don’t think the horse should’ve been euthanized on the spot, maybe you should go watch that video and see the obvious wringing pain the horse is in and the fact that he was 100% non weight bearing with an obvious shattered leg. feel free to go pay YouTube a visit

If that was my horse, my first and only decision was to end his suffering as quickly and painlessly as possible. Luckily, today, radiographs can be taken within seconds and evaluated immediately. So I am willing to bet that Mongolian Groom was euthanized within minutes of arriving at the equine hospital. At least I hope that he was after radiographs revealed what everyone could see with the eye from the outside.

[Pronzini]

@OverandOnward

Everything we do has some degree of risk, and at a high level of performance the risk is greater.

Even those who play the piano while seated in one spot have risks of tendon and ligament damage, and other problems they know better than I do.

Is it worth it? That answer depends on who is being asked. Some of the performers would rather take the risk than be deprived of the experience.

With horses, of course we are making the decision for both ourselves and the horse. But these horses are bred for this, and their exuberant high while performing shows that they feel the purpose in their blood.

I don’t know if there will ever really be an answer. Everyone has their personal limits.

If enough sensible people decide that too many boundaries are being crossed, then support will withdraw and the sport will diminish, perhaps eventually fade away altogether. Whatever sport it is.

Is racing losing the support of the general public? Have too many people reached their limit with racing? I think that may depend on how much public support racing needs to keep going. Because a great many people in the U.S. are already barely aware that horse racing even exists. They woke up to it slightly during the American Pharoah and Justify wave of publicity, then forgot about it again. Racing continued regardless.

You of course are holding racing to the standard of football or basketball as opposed to eventing or dressage.

I think we should all step back and recognize that the general public doesn’t care about horse sports period. The Olympics are always in danger of losing them in favor of some new version of gymnastics and figure skating. The general public probably would react badly to eventing deaths too especially if they were caught in slo mo and played for a national audience.

But the world is not the Twitterverse or for that matter COTH. I know it sounds crass but before we figuratively bury this sport just consider that 67,000 were at Santa Anita in person to enjoy this anachronistic activity. Please get back to me when any other horse sport draws a crowd like that in the United States.

$56 million was bet on Friday and another $108 million on Saturday. Diane Feinstein can beat her chest for her not very representative constituents but the State of California took in over $20 million on Saturday in takeout. Sure PETA can float the ballot initiative but first of all they have to get on the ballot, then they have to get the votes, then they would have to be upheld by the courts (unlikely). Money does talk and banning things which are otherwise legal everywhere else in a whole state (as opposed to San Francisco) is not a small thing. Racing and the ancillary businesses is a billion dollar industry in California.

So draw whatever personal lines make you happy but I just wouldn’t assume what we find compelling here is also the way the wind blows everywhere. The LA Times and the rest of the “mainstream media” doesn’t speak for everyone. That ship sailed a long time ago.

[OverandOnward]

@Pronzini

…
So draw whatever personal lines make you happy but I just wouldn’t assume what we find compelling here is also the way the wind blows everywhere. The LA Times and the rest of the “mainstream media” doesn’t speak for everyone. That ship sailed a long time ago.

That’s not what I said at all. You are looking for a fight and just jumped on something without taking it in. But it doesn’t matter. :winkgrin:

[OverandOnward]

@Pronzini

You of course are holding racing to the standard of football or basketball as opposed to eventing or dressage.

…

So draw whatever personal lines make you happy but I just wouldn’t assume what we find compelling here is also the way the wind blows everywhere. The LA Times and the rest of the “mainstream media” doesn’t speak for everyone. That ship sailed a long time ago.

That’s not what I said at all. You are looking for a fight and just jumped on something without taking it in. But it doesn’t matter. :winkgrin:

[Where_sMyWhite]

@snaffle1987

PETA has paid for and uploaded a very high quality video of the entire event (to further their agenda) from the point of the bad step to the point in which he was loaded on the trailer. If you don’t think the horse should’ve been euthanized on the spot, maybe you should go watch that video and see the obvious wringing pain the horse is in and the fact that he was 100% non weight bearing with an obvious shattered leg. feel free to go pay YouTube a visit

You must have seen a different video than the one I was able to find posted by PETA.

Yes, he was non-weigh bearing on that LH. Where you got ‘wringing pain’ from I’m not sure as much of the video is just the screens hiding Mongolian Groom. Shattered leg, not sure how you made that diagnosis from one video of a horse non-weightbearing on a leg. I’d probably agree bone(s) broken but shattered, without rads, how would you know that?

I’d have much rather seen (and who knows what treatment was done after the vets arrived, screens up, loaded into the van, etc.) some effort made to preserve Mongolian Groom’s life if at all possible, delaying a decision until an outcome was clear. That’s just me.

[Palm_Beach]

@Where'sMyWhite

You must have seen a different video than the one I was able to find posted by PETA.

Yes, he was non-weigh bearing on that LH. Where you got ‘wringing pain’ from I’m not sure as much of the video is just the screens hiding Mongolian Groom. Shattered leg, not sure how you made that diagnosis from one video of a horse non-weightbearing on a leg. I’d probably agree bone(s) broken but shattered, without rads, how would you know that?

I’d have much rather seen (and who knows what treatment was done after the vets arrived, screens up, loaded into the van, etc.) some effort made to preserve Mongolian Groom’s life if at all possible, delaying a decision until an outcome was clear. That’s just me.

You’re absolutely right. Vets have to do their due diligence, while keeping the welfare of the horse paramount. You can’t unkill it.

[dotneko]

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbtv.com%2Fvideo%2Fworkout%2Fmongolian-groom-galloped-at-santa-anita-park-on-october-31st-2019%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1xkl7sAvGfBhcTiBNXE6CED_6Mek8SMp7A21jg5jwJF0RIz6y9eCmF6nI&h=AT3jwCflREv-Cd5hpsaXLEqxgDVyH15ueiMmJwhJwrJriyobl37OhJhq6Q95jaKwSwWEIlSoZx3dNjGwCfTgJS_GAkkEv8_CCRI4NG3hfM-uRCMscx4A1UPOUgIiJIlyvYI_RdKFS831eUH-0X9iGlXK7A7TBeM

Watch this video of him 2 days prior. How was he allowed to race? Guess which leg he broke down on…poor baby was failed by so many people.

[betonbill]

Just watched that video. Overall impression was of a horse half trying to strike off on a left lead canter but doing not quite a tranter instead, leading to a funny look to the hind legs. However, from the side view when he was actually trotting he looked quite normal.

I’m not a vet. I do know that horses can travel in strange ways at times. I also know that if one looks hard enough, every horse in the world can look NQR.

Perhaps he did have something going on, but I didn’t see anything horribly alarming about that footage.

[Brigid]

@Texarkana

At Pau CCI***** a couple weeks ago, a rider tried to continue on XC after his rein broke. The rider lost the ability to effectively steer his horse and the result was his horse tried to jump a 10ft+ solid, decorative wall, slamming headlong into it at full speed.

Excuse me, but where in Eventing would be a 10 (plus) ft solid wall? At “Full Speed”??
Also - color me confused - but I thought Eventing only to 4 ****

[danceronice]

@Palm Beach

You’re absolutely right. Vets have to do their due diligence, while keeping the welfare of the horse paramount. You can’t unkill it.

And in this case I think was pretty clear that’s what happened–yes, probably if it were someone’s pasture puff or a school horse who took a bad step in the pasture the vet wouldn’t have bothered with extensive rads, but here, they had to at minimum put in an effort to be absolutely, 100% sure.

I was actually more concerned someone was going to pull a Barbaro and take a horse where euthanasia was the best option and string it out to try to avoid any immediate fatalities.

[Texarkana]

@Brigid

Excuse me, but where in Eventing would be a solid 10 ft wall? At “Full Speed”??
Also - color me confused - but I thought Eventing only to 4 ****

It’s easy to be confused as of lately. :lol: In 2018, FEI changed the star system effective this year:
https://useventing.com/news-media/ne…stem-explained

Pau is one of the 6 current CCI5*-L events in the world (with the 7th to be added in 2020).

As for the wall in question, you can see for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g1aHWGCer0

[punchy]

My line in the sand was when people were packing up to leave town after the meet ended and I saw this trainer cajole a 3-legged horse into the trailer and then it stood in the trailer for 45 minutes because it turned out the truck had no gas and the guy had no gas money so the stall man came and gave the guy money to leave town. And they let that trainer back in the next year, along with the trainer who had abandoned 5 horses, but by that time I was already done and gone.