I have to agree with this, I would not expect a refund or a credit towards a new saddle after ten months. Since the OP is such a newcomer where was the trainer while these saddles were being purchased? As Scribbler pointed out, nowhere is there any mention of how the saddle fits the horse either, the #1 priority.
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I second this. Anne is great, and I believe she is taking appointments again. She is very knowledgeable and particular about fit, so even though she is the Voltaire rep she’s not afraid to say something doesn’t fit. And yes, involve your trainer!
Not entirely, CWD obviously messed up on their listing, but I’m not sure where the line should be and if 10 months is reasonable.
The size is marked on the saddle (and maybe even pictured on the listing?), so if it arrives and is not the advertised size, of course OP should return and get all shipping etc. back. Same as with any sized item, like shoes, clothes, etc. if the listing size was wrong. Or OP is free to try it out during the trial period and see if it works and return if not.
But say the OP didn’t check the size mark or consult a fitter for 2 years, or 5 years or 10? Does CWD eternally owe a full refund/trade? The trial period is there so that buyers can confirm the saddle fits the horse and rider. If it is wrongly advertised then the seller should cover everything (shipping, insurance) both ways as presumably the buyer wouldn’t have taken a 17" on trial. I get that it isn’t as simple as checking a size tag on a dress and it’s a major purchase so I agree they should be generous on the trade in if OP wanted to go that route. But I’m not sure they owe a 100% refund nearly a year later.
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You are right, its important the OP realizes that the same size in one saddle brand won’t necessarily fit in another brand, just like clothing. And I have ridden in many saddles that measured differently than what the stamp says, you just have to sit in each one.
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:yes:
I believe with Amerigos, the serial number on the flap starts with: seat size, then tree, then serial # - but I could be wrong. It is a long time, since I have sat in one of those saddles or seen one up close.
However… I can’t say this is something that is “common knowledge”. I, as a vendor, think it is unreasonable to expect the average consumer to be able to correctly read a serial number. That’s the vendor’s responsibility.
I have always been under the impression the trial period is there for the rider to confirm the item they ordered fits their horse and themselves. It’s not there for the customer to confirm they did in fact receive the right item. I don’t believe it’s fair to expect the consumer to bite costs on an incorrect item just because the trial period is over.
To put it this way -
Would you feel the same way, if it was the wrong model that was sent to the person? IE, you ordered an Amerigo Pinerolo, but got a Vega - they look similar at a glance to the average person… Your trainer’s been riding in it for months and you finally get to the barn and, whoops! That’s not the saddle you ordered…
What about if it was the wrong brand? You ordered an Amerigo, and a Kieffer showed up?
How about if it was the wrong tree? You ordered a MW tree, and you got a MN…?
How about if the serial number was wrong, and you ordered a MW and your saddle arrives as a MN? (That happened to me!)
Since the mistake and error came from the vendor, it is the vendor’s responsibility to make right by it. I think time is arbitrary, in cases like this.
Just so you (g) don’t think I’m entitled (since that was mentioned up thread) – I worked in horse-related retail for nearly two decades, including working specifically in the saddle + returns department at my last retail job. The above is my perspective, as a past employee for those stores. I know both of the big tack chains I worked for would stand by their error and offer an exchange for the correct saddle, with no time limit enforced. So I personally find CWD’s refusal to at least provide the item the OP ordered a little shady. That is not industry standard in my experience.
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I think the key detail in this scenario is that this is a used saddle being offered as is. It’s not a new product being sold by CWD. And they offered a pretty lengthy trial period compared to most used saddle dealers (often 3-5 days max).
I’ve been looking for a used saddle and when it comes to measurements, ads are all over the board. I see things marked as “pro” panels that definitely aren’t if you know that brand’s codes. And they measure flaps to the 1/4" but is that really that accurate? Why don’t they say what # flap that is for that brand? One person will call a saddle MW based on their dot to dot measurement and it’s a M tree (or the only tree for that model). And you might see a seat size advertised as X but if you are lucky the notes might say it’s actually stamped Y but measures X.
In any event, used saddles are offered as is. If you buy a used saddle from a major company that is the company’s own brand sometimes there will be a warranty attached (like the tree warranty might follow it if the company inspected the saddle). But for the most part, everything is “as is” and it’s really up to the buyer to verify all the details either from researching the stamp or by carefully evaluating the saddle during the trial period. The saddle was fully refundable up to a point.
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I don’t think it’s common knowledge to know how to read all the numbers in a serial number, but I think it’s pretty common knowledge that they’re there and relate to seat/tree/flap information, and most people can find the seat size even if they don’t know what all the panel info means, especially when it starts to get into customizations. IME brands are pretty good about getting back to you if you email them serial number info and ask what it means.
Things like tree size and seat size should be pretty apparent during a trial period–that’s why they exist. It should be obvious sitting a saddle on a horse that it’s too narrow, or the seat is too small for the rider. Regardless of what the seller says it is, or what size you think you should be, if it doesn’t fit, send it back. That’s why there’s a trial period offered. I think the OP should have sent the first saddle back immediately when she sat in it and thought it was too small; I can see keeping it a week to maybe do a lesson and see what her trainer thought, but not 10 months later.
OP, I’d suggest working with both your trainer and a fitter, to fit you and the horse. Don’t get stuck on the seat size as “I must fit in this” because it varies even within brand based on things like flap positioning and seat depth. Don’t get stuck up on brands either.
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Since OP mentioned she was a bit fluffy I wonder if the thought is that it was an 18 but she was going to be stuck with it. There are not much selection in 18.5 or 19 inch saddles. Since she is fluffy she assumed that anything she rode in was going to be a little tight if what was represented to her as an 18 was tight. I am a bit fluffy too so have BTDT.
Yes in some ways the CWD trial policy is generous compared to the 3, 5, 7 days of other used vendors. However for other used vendors you tend to be only out the round trip shipping. Last I checked CWD has a restocking fee. You basically are buying that extra time if it doesn’t work out.
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I would be less flexible with any company, if the issue was identified within the return period or honestly, even within 2 months. I wouldn’t expect they would charge their “restocking fee” as they usually do etc.
But- I bought a Suburban years ago. Advertised as a 2003. I bought it, it was fine. Went looking for a part and the VIN was a 2005- I never even looked at the registration (eyeroll). I was standing there telling the parts people my car was X year. He was like- nope- look right here. (facepalm)So- whose fault is it that I didn’t do due diligence? It was no harm no foul- but I couldn’t have take it back to the dealer after 10 months and said "I drove it for X months but it was misrepresented (and easily verified). Yeah it ran fine but it is the wrong year and just NQR the whole time Now I figured it out…
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They have not had a restocking fee on used saddles for some time. The restocking fee is for custom ordered saddles that the buyer refuses to accept for whatever reason, IIRC even if it’s CWD’s error in making the saddle and they refuse to make it right…
Current used policy from the website:
Once you receive the saddle, there is a 30 business day trial period to ride & evaluate the saddle. If you wish to return your saddle to us free of charge, please request a prepaid label from our customer services . The saddle will be fully refunded.
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Let’s say I buy a pair of used jeans from an online consignment store. They are in one of those European sizes and we both make a mistake on the size (say we think Italian 42 is US 32 because the vendor measured the waist). They are tight but I figure they should fit and I go on a diet to fit them and keep them past the 30 day refund period.
Ten months later someone whose taste I trust says “major camel toe!” I go on line and realize that a US 32 is actually Italian 48 and these are way too tight. So I contact the consignment store after wearing them for a year and demand a full refund or credit towards a new pair of jeans?
What would happen?
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The restocking fees are only on returned custom saddles (as with all custom saddle brands). On used saddles, there is no restocking fee, and they will even email you a label.
If she thought it might be wrong after 2 weeks of riding it, a call to the office, 10 months ago, to get it returned would have been easy. Heck, 10 months ago there was no pandemic and a rep could have come out for any brand or any independent rep and said “‘oh no, that’s too small for you”. Or your knowledgeable trainer could have piped up.
i don’t think anyone is saying CWD is the angel in this but almost any market wouldn’t take something back after 10 months.
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Well the thing about saddles its more about fit that it is about the number unless you’re one of these types that has a size 8 foot but insists you wear a 6.5. And like many of us with shoes we can say we wear a size 7 but sometimes depending on brand it might be a 6.5 or 7.5.Saddles are the same way, and even different saddle brand makes/styles you may feel better in a size up or down. You might find you fit perfect in a 17" Voltaire but feel better in a 17.5 Antares. I tried a 17" CWD that a friend had for sale - forward flap. Hated it. I felt like a wet noodle. Current saddle, a Hastilow, I felt like it locked me right in place. It felt perfect. Current saddle and my old saddle both the same size, but I feel so much better in my new saddle. They are all made a little differently and as such fit each person differently. The CWD i triedl the seller loved that saddle, I hated it. A person who used to lease my horse had an Antares, I think 18"? I rode in it occasionally and loved it, but my Hastilow is a 17". So see OP you dont’ really need to fret over the size # of the saddle as much as you do - does it fit you, does it put you in correct position, are you comfortable in it - and does it fit your horse. If it took you 10 months to decide that the saddle is all wrong because the size - how did take you 10 months? When I tried the CWD I knew instantly it was wrong; when I was trying out new saddles there were a couple I knew right off I didn’t feel as good/secure in as the one I purchased.
I also want to say, I would be surprised that a saddle reseller wouldn’t actually measure the saddle vs “hand” measurement. but maybe I am just very naive
You most certainly could have taken it back if it was misrepresented.
This isn’t a $60 pair of jeans, and the buyer didn’t make a mistake here. It’s a $1900 used saddle that was inappropriately listed/sold.
I must be the odd one out but it is not industry standard, to refuse to repair a mistake made on the vendor’s side. That’s purely crappy customer service. No matter what industry you’re in.
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I assumed hand measure meant the took a tape measure to it, versus believing some label on it.
You and me both.
I am all for buyer beware and all that. But, when the vendor messes up like this…
I am also one of those people that does not get it when a vendor makes you something custom (boots, saddle, etc) that then does not work why should you have to pay a restocking fee? You did not mess up, they did.
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Inappropriately listed, or a mistake, and buyer had all the data needed to ensure it was correct. 10 months is a LONG time.
I have to say- I have had nothing but great experiences with CWD and less with other “big” name brands. Everyone is entitled to an opinion- I feel that 10 months is way too long.
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That they are! :encouragement:
Hmm, just realized the smiley emoji isn’t working. Looks snarky without it. Anyway, yes, you’re good and allowed to have your own opinion. It’s one of the things I appreciate about this board.
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@beowulf , I can see your thumbs up smiley. One of the glitches going on right now. For some of us they work and for others they do not.
I certainly would not expect a refund after 10 months. It’s highly unlikely that the saddle was intentionally misrepresented; 17 inches is a more popular seat size than 18 inches so I don’t see any reason why they would want to make it seem like an 18 inch. It was human error—so yes, still the fault of the seller HOWEVER, that is part of the reason why the trial period exists. That is your time to examine, measure, test ride, etc. to ensure that no such human error was made. Seat size is also a pretty basic part of the stamp that is easy to figure out, all it takes is a modicum of research before a ~$2000 purchase to know that the seat size would be stamped under the left flap.
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I’ve had nothing but terrible experience with CWD but fall on 10 months being a long time to expect complete culpability on the part of CWD.
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