Mysterious Hind End Tripping - whole back end feels like it falls out

I just don’t know if it could possibly sound MORE like loose stifles. You’ve pretty much described a textbook case of a horse with a history of mild issues as well as recent events designed to make the problem worse. Plenty of horse with loose stifles flex fine, it’s not typically a pain issue unless it’s not been properly managed and there is inflammation in the joint.

As for the headshaking, it does hurt a bit when that hind toe unexpectedly gets stuck, I would attribute the head shaking to frustration in the absence of any other neurological symptoms.

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Okay so say it is slipping/loose stifles. What is the treatment? I’m assuming not joint injections??

The vet told me if its cervical arthritis injecting the neck is an option, and if its EPM there are various (though $$$) treatments available.

The horse has been out of work for about two weeks. I used to do a TON of hill work with him when we were doing the AOs (albeit several years ago) and he went great. I basically hacked him out and trotted up hills 3-5 days a week and then did some canter work in the ring and jumped. It has been several years since he was in this routine, as he was leased from 2017-2019 doing a lower level job. Unfortunately the new farm doesn’t have much in the way of hills and the footing in our outdoor ring is less than ideal.

His turnout routine hasn’t changed much. He goes out for 6-8 hours during the day and has a large stall.

I am sorry you’re going through this. I have a 19 yo TB with cervical arthritis and I think it’s progressing to the point of retirement soon. Last year he locked out a stifle while we were riding and was sore for several weeks, starting to do the “falling out” behind. Then he was positive for Lyme, so off most of the winter. Then in the spring he was bilaterally lame behind. We injected both hocks and also the SI, though at different times. When we were doing the SI, we ultrasounded the neck to find some not insignificant arthritis. The injections behind helped a lot and he came sound, works in contact, jumps, in generally his wonderful self. He struggles with the left lead sometimes but I think that is a different issue. However, at the walk and occasionally the trot, he also does that “flat tire” thing with his hind end. I can’t really explain it, it’s like he stumbles behind. At one point, he almost fell down. I tried to describe it to the vet but it’s hard, and it’s so infrequent that I can’t really recreate it for her. She did say that neck issues can echo down the back/hind end and I think that was the case for him. It’s been better since injecting the hind end but I won’t be able to do that again. He lives on Previcox and gets Pentosan both of which I think help. But, despite his mind being sharp, I think his body is more worn out than I want to admit :frowning:

I think the cervical arthritis is the main problem for my horse because he is on nearly 24/7 turnout, it doesn’t change with his fitness, he lives in a field with very large hills and we regularly ride up hills, over poles, etc, so I think he is quite fit and since injections has flexed well.

When I first read your post, I thought look at the neck. Sure, shoeing could be an issue, maybe he needs more turnout, or there could be real issues with the hind end. But, the similarities to my old man make me think neck. :cry:

I’m sorry you’re going through this with your horse. It sounds exactly like my horse… it would feel like his whole pelvis drops out from underneath him. It does not feel anything like a stifle slip. He was recently evaluated at New Bolton and found to be neurologic. I will pray that is not the case for your boy.

As far as the question about cervical problems affecting the hind limbs- if you look at a cross section of the spinal cord, proprioceptive fiber bundles run from the brain and down the posterior column of the cord. So impingement/degeneration along the posterior cord at the cervical level could affect hind limbs.

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But in most cases it is due to the lower limb/pelvic compensation of the upper torso imbalance. It is not a direct association with the nerves.

If you are considering a spinal canal stenosis. However, if facet joint injections etc. treat the issue then it is more likely the foremen and nerve roots.

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The fact that when he was doing a lot of hill work he went better makes it even more likely they two are related. It’s a plan you’ll need to come up with your vet but strengthening exercises, increasing turnout and keeping a consistent riding schedule. Estrone injections are also an option for some horses. Letting them sit out of work typically makes them worse, but understand that you need to determine what’s going on first. It’s primarily careful management, not much you can do to “fix it”. The good news is if you manage it right it can nearly disappear.

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It might involve intra articular stifle injections but there’s a lot of things to try first!

mostly you’re looking at a slow consistent program building up exercise. Hills are great but stretchies are good, backing up is good, but you need to recognize that has limitations with performance horses. You don’t want to just run them backwards but well trained good backwards steps are always good. The other thing you need to work on consistently is engaged transitions transitions transitions and when you’re done do some more transitions!

The other really critical thing to work on is your program with exercise and pain management. because the challenge with upward patellar fixation aka loose stifles is that as the horse trips he can develop inflammation in the joint. It is stress on a joint but unfortunately the only way to get past the problem is to work through it so it becomes a judicious cycle of exercise and exercise with your NSAID of choice. Too many people back off when the horse is sore, and that’s understandable because you do have to carefully monitor the horse to make sure it isn’t something else. This is where somebody who is experienced in riding and lameness is helpful if you are not capable of identifying stifle lameness reliably.

My CDE pony suffers from this condition, and it’s pretty clearly conformation based. I have worked for over 2 years to really strengthen his stifles, and I’m happy to report that once I pick him up into contact and get him engaged he has exactly zero problem with his stifles. But because the head of his femur is somewhat flat, that makes it easier for the patella to slip up over the head when he’s relaxed and doing a little downhill pokey trot. I’m okay with that, I can manage that although when you’re out on marathon you do do a lot of that type of trot! But I’ve noticed it’s never really a problem there. If anything he’s down to having a few incidents of slipping when he’s at home and super relaxed and just really on the forehand or when he’s very, very tired.

I did do stifle injections last year as we were heading into the season, but that’s because I know that getting fit as a CDE horse can really make a horse sore. It’s a hard job and fitting them up, it’s a tough couple of months of work, so I wanted to give him a leg up, so to speak. This year as we were heading into the season I went and had his stifles x-rayed for the first time in 24 months just to see where we were, in case he had developed he was starting to show some changes. His stifles were exceptionally clean and he passed his lameness exam with flying colors and I deliberately worked up to a couple of consecutive hard works. This tells me all the homework I’ve been doing has been paying off.

Because about the worst thing you can do for the stifles is to get them sore, stop working then start working again when they are sound and ride them till they’re sore again. All you’re doing is setting up that stifle for repeat cycles of inflammation/rest and inflammation in the joint is ultimately going to lead to a deterioration of the synovial fluid, which will in turn lead to arthritis in the joint. That’s why the consistent exercise program followed with an appropriate level of treatment with either/or NSAIDs and some type of joint management like adequate might be the thing your vet suggests, but they will all recommend that slow consistent exercise program! and honestly if you can find a place that has 24/7 turnout, if that works with your program, that will also greatly improve your outcomes.

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So I went and played with him today. I did some of the very basic neuro tests and all seemed normal to me (though I am definitely not a vet!) He responds to palpating along the spine. He blinks when you put your hand near his eye. If you cross one of his legs he uncrosses it. He backs up evenly. He twitches when you rub his body with a piece of hay. He keeps his balance and resists when you try to pull him sideways from his tail. I know these are all just basic indicators, though.

I did take him out in the ring and let him free lunge because I like to have an idea of how he’s moving. I had him out for about 15 minutes and there was no tripping/slipping at all. I set up some cavaletti along the wall and he navigated those without issue. It’s definitely worse when he’s under saddle for whatever that’s worth. He just seemed like his normal happy self today. Vet comes tomorrow AM so will report back with updates.

Here’s a video from tonight for what it’s worth. We can ignore my commentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YafS…ature=youtu.be

You probably can’t tell from the video but his hind end conformation is relatively straight up and down. He’s also a big horse with generally a big step and some suspension, so it does make me wonder if his stifles are just really weak.

Well, your video spends more time looking at empty space than it does your horse. Could you try again?

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you seem like a treat. I will let you know when I master the art of waving a lunge whip chasing my horse and videoing in the other hand. I think you can see him trot both directions though.

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From the video and your description, it doesn’t sound neuro to me (but I am not a vet), unless it’s the very beginnings of a neuro problem. But the fact that you say that it seems worse when he’s ridden makes me think that it could be the back, or some combination of back and hind end that makes it harder for him to keep it all together physically when he’s carrying the weight of a rider and being asked to move in a particular way.

That’s probably an obvious suggestion. But has the vet watched him being ridden as part of the attempt to find a diagnosis? (If you mentioned this before I apologize).

Good news! The vet was not inclined to think it was neuro related after seeing him move on the line and at liberty. Of course he didn’t slip at all when she was here, but she has seen him do it before. We re-flexed the stifles a couple different ways and he did flex positive so we decided to inject two different sites there.

She said neck x-rays could be the next step if this does not make a difference but at this point, she does not suspect that’s what is causing the tripping. He performed all her neuro tests well and flexed his neck comfortably for her.

Our plan is to give him a week off and then slowly bring him back to work with careful condition and strength-building and so where we’re at in a month or so.

So relieved it doesn’t appear to be neurological!

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:lol: Your video was too cute. He’s a very handsome lad! Relieved your vet seems to think non-neuro! Great news. I’ve worked with a few who had weak stifles, and with dedicated work they all improved significantly. Lots straight lines at a marching walk - hills and varied terrain if you’ve got 'em, poles if you don’t!

Not related to the stifles - but he seems to be relatively short backed/ long legged? My last mare was this way, and my current horse even more so, and I’ve found that this conformation really predisposes them to pivot through corners which, if they are a bit unfit or weaker in the hind end, can really exacerbate that “flat tire” feeling. In fact, my big guy was suspected of having neuro issues as well, but it’s looking much more likely to be a case of “big giant horse with awkward conformation and weak muscling.”

That may or may not be helpful info, but thought I’d pass along!

My old gelding used to do this. It was a shoeing issue. He needed to be shod every four weeks and his hind feet needed to be squared off at the toe. It would increase breakover. He was a horse that lived in bell boots because he had a huge overreach at the trot and a big stride. If we went one week over the 4 week max, it would feel like his hind end would go out from underneath himself and the longer we waited, the worse it would get. The minute his hind feet would get the least bit long, it would start. Like you, I spent thousands trying to figure it out. The vets couldn’t find anything. Just got lucky that the farrier figured it out.

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Did the vet inject without X rays? I am curious why they injected and didn’t offer blistering instead? Most often I have seen blistering done for slipping. Injections done if there is something found in the X ray. Can you elaborate more on what the vet said?

I am also surprised at only a week off after injections. I thought 2+ was the norm?

This is typical with horses with a slipping stifle. Your horse most likely had this but it was corrected with proper shoeing.

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Personally I have never seen x-rays as a prerequisite to steroid joint injections. We always perform flexion tests and evaluate what the horse needs done. In cases like this where we’re seeing something obvious, it helps us figure out which joints could be an issue. I have seen ultrasound guided injections for something like an SI, back, or neck, but not for hocks/stifles/coffin joints. The x ray isn’t going to show us much of interest. The vet isn’t worried about whether he has any fractured bones or OCD given that he didn’t present like that. He’s giving us all the signs that he may want injections so we just do them. I believe this is common practice in performance horses, or at least it is at the hunter barns I’ve been at.

Our typical joint injections routine is three days stall rest with hand walking and bute, turn out fourth day, then resume work as normal. I know vets that turn them out right away though. I’ve just always used this vet and followed this routine with good results. YMMV.

out of an abundance of caution I’m waiting a few extra days to get back on him. Sometimes it takes 2-3 weeks to see the full effect of the injections.

Typically I go to normal turn out within 12 hours, but mine are out more than in and nobody is stupid. Then 3-5 days off then return to work. X rays aren’t mandatory, but sometimes we do them. But all of the above really is dependent on the horse, the results of the lameness exam in conjunction with my input on the history.

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Nope.