Oh fun. Let’s split hairs over who’s leading who. Or whom. Just, why?
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Very well said.
G.
Totally agree.
The problem seems to have started when the horse moved from being a “using animal” and was treated as working livestock to a 1000 pound poodle “pet.”
The western disciplines still use horses for cattle work and expect the horses to stand tied, be calm in changing environments, and to be generally good equine citizens.
The draft breeds are too big not to have well-behaved animals and are used still for work in driving, logging and farming.
The English disciplines have morphed into “show” disciplines…H/J, dressage…and have lost the traditions of establishing good manners in their horses after the old cavalry guys who date from the era of Gordon Wright’s Horsemanship and Horsemastership, retired and eventually died off.
If you can find someone who actually expects their horse to be a productive equine citizen, you will probably see someone who knows horsemanship. It is an oral tradition passed down by apprenticing to a skilled horseman/woman who worked multiple horses.
These people quietly go about their work in their own yards, quietly producing well-behaved animals.
Here is one trainer that hasn’t been mentioned, Barry Hook.
https://www.youtube.com/user/barryhook2/videos?disable_polymer=1
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Thank you all for your insightful posts. I think in beginning to understand a little more about the controversy surrounding NH.
I’ve been perusing the internet in my spare time for training videos. I’d like to get a buck branaman DVD
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Save your money…try Warwick Schiller. He has a video subscription service or some free info on youtube.
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There are various opinions and it doesn’t hurt to look at a few different ones before making a selection…and different trainers appeal to different owners and might work better on some horses. I like Buck B best for clearly communication then demonstrating but don’t condemn all the others. Prefer to recommend some more strongly then others and might suggest Googling some of the others before deciding.
WS is fine if OP feels its the best for them and their horse.
“Natural horsemanship” is a combination of an oxymoron and clever branding. I think a lot of it can be laid at the feet of Parelli, who had a lot of influence for a while on horse training market. A lot of NH trainers don’t get much beyond colt breaking and ground work which is certainly true of PP. He seems to be much less prominent (notorious?) now, which is a good thing. I’ve seen Parelli, Anderson and Craig Cameron at Equine Affaire and wrote them all off along with several of their followers. I even emailed EA about Cameron after watching him strike a horse on and around the head with a whip, and berated a participant because she wouldn’t jump her horse over steel barrels in a “conquer your fear” session.
If you want to understand the training methods some people call NH you have to know the Dorrance brothers and Ray Hunt, They never called it NH. When I first got connected up with my BO almost 20 years ago, she loaned me Tom Dorrance’s book : “True Unity: Willing Communication Between Horse and Human.” Unfortunately I didn’t have the insight to understand what I was reading. Bill Dorrance’s book “True Horsemanship through Feel” is also a valuable resource. We had an opportunity to audit a Ray Hunt clinic here a few years before he died. I learned a lot that day and value that experience.
Buck Brannaman is the most widely recognized and respected student of Ray Hunt. I’ve audited several Buck clinics that my BO participated in. She and another woman at our barn have been invited to a few Buck clinics in Wyoming. They both are becoming very good trainers. The only thing I waffle about is the flag. I think it takes a while to develop that skill to use it effectively. I’ve seen novices use one, but not correctly. They wave it and chase the horse around without connecting a clear cue to a correct response. The horse learns to run around in a circle and the trainer wonders why they can’t get a transition.
John Lyons (he’s sort of retired now) is one of those who says “please don’t call me a NH trainer.” I got hooked on him after I bought my horse in 2001. His book “John Lyons on Horses” is another good resource about horse behavior and training. He refers to his method as Conditioned Response training. All you need is a horse, a halter (not necessary rope), a lead line, and a dressage whip as an extension of your hand. No flag, no carrot stick. I’ve seen him many times at Equine Affaire. He extends his methodology into riding. He has good audios on topics like fear and contact for English and Western riders.
Julie Goodnight really caught my attention in November at Equine Affaire and I wish I had found her sooner. She did a session for aging riders at EA, and her show on RFD TV today was about a rider who had a stroke and needed help getting her skills back. Julie uses NH in her branding, but she puts so much emphasis on riding and related issues like body position and confidence in the saddle that I wonder why she uses that term. She really gave me a shot in the arm and my riding and enjoyment of my horse have both taken off after being in Lazy Mode for too long.
I think what connects these trainers is their emphasis on understanding a horse’s behavior and how they learn. They also stress breaking things into little steps, using repetitions, and knowing that a few small steps forward are peppered with some backward. Riding is a big part of the equation and is often absent with NH trainers. What we do may not be “natural.” If we understand our horse, however, we can create a rewarding relationship using “horsemanship.”
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Bahahaha. I’ll play.
With every single thing you do. Safety first. 100% of the time.
You do not want the horse behind you. The biggest reason is the horse is out of your line of sight. You can not see what is about to happen. You don’t know he has tripped until he lands on you. You don’t know he has shied and taken off until he runs you over and remember you are giving this advice to people you have not met which includes people who are leading unsuitable horses and this includes children.
If the horse is behind you the horse is just following your feet. This is where beginners get into trouble. The horse follows their feet. Everyone is happy. The beginner ties the horse and walks away. The horse goes to follow the feet and suddenly owner is not happy. The horse doesn’t understand why and things go downhill from there. I have seen this countless times.
You should be at the horse’s shoulder. That is safe from teeth and hindlegs. If the horse trips he will fall down beside you. If he comes towards you in a trip or a shy you can push off the shoulder and get out of the way.
The horse should walk before you walk. The horse should halt before you halt. There should be 2 signals for back. So as the horse does not back in the float when you are asking another horse to back out of the float.
So click means walk. This will become between you and the horse only. Noone else will notice it. Halt means halt. Back and a thumb touching on the chest mean back. Then back and a tug on the tail to back them out of the float. Then back and waving your finger from side to side so as you can do it from a distance.
Now the horse will lead, walk, halt and back for you with or without a halter on and from a distance and without you walking.
To lunge click and the horse walks forward. You take a step back. You are in the lunging position.
The 4’ away advice worries me greatly. You don’t hold them tight but 4 foot! My step father never did learn. He had the lead too long and going over a stream the horse went forward kicked out in exuberance and broke his leg. 5 years later, another horse, lead too long, another broken leg.
Safety first in EVERYTHING you do.
I was extremely lucky at a new work place when asked to move a mare. She tried to throw herself down on top of me. I saw it happening and was able to get out of the way. If she had done that from out of my line of sight … well I shudder at the thought.
Also the time I had to catch a stallion who had escaped so the girl ( who had worked there for years sigh!) Could not catch him, so brought her mare out and then hit him with sticks and screamed at him when he mounted her mare that she brought out of her yard. I can tell you there was no 4 foot lead rope with him behind me. He was a little bit upset!
Safety first.
Okay play time over. I am off to work Stars. Ride Sim. Rake hay and then off to work. CYA
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One of the paradoxes I see with new riders is that people will turn to natural horsemanship so-called because they don’t have the basics.
They can’t longe effectively without tripping over the rope so they round pen. They can’t lead a horse, or work inhand with a bridle and whip, so they start shaking the halter rope or a bag on a stick. They can’t lead a horse at their shoulder without inadvertently pulling it on top of them so they go for the horse trailing behind them.
The thing is, if you don’t yet have the coordination feel and timing to longe or handwalk a horse safely you surely don’t have the control of body language to do liberty work productively.
On the other hand a small time NH trainer who is on-site can usually train the person in the basics. So I would say find a local person rather than a super star video.
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Walking in tandem if you want to call it that with horses head at your shoulder is IME the safest and most controlled method. A calm horse on a calm day could trail 4 feet behind you but I sure wouldn’t want any surprises or spooks. Too much room to accelerate!
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I truncated your post for brevity. I wrote that you want the horse at a 45 degree angle BETWEEN your shoulder and directly behind you. If your body is a circle, your face is 0 degrees, your right shoulder is 90 degrees, behind you is 180 degrees and your left shoulder is 270 degrees. You want the horse at 135 degrees. I did NOT write that you want the horse directly behind you.
There is a lot of training involved, the horse is reading your body language, not simply following your feet. And I’m sorry you’ve had so many accidents and scary situations. Sounds like a lack of training, and some pretty incompetent horsemanship regarding the stallion situation.
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The horse does not “trail” directly behind you, as I stated above, it’s off to the side and 45 degrees between the right angle your right shoulder and back form. A big part of training is desensitizing the horse to stimuli that is meaningless. A plastic bag blowing by, the trash truck emptying a dumpster over there, the gunshot in the woods, the deer bounding across the field, the horses playing in the next paddock, the crack of the lunge whip from the ring, are meaningless. So what suprises will make the horse spook, or accelerate in a manner that would be harmful? If his head is at your shoulder, even a startle that makes him plant all four feet could mean one if his feet on your feet. But if he is 4’ back and at an angle, he won’t step on you. And even if he startles, then all your good training kicks in and instead of accelerating he realizes that what caught his attention is NOT a predator and he doesn’t run you over.
I am by myself working with my horses and tbs fresh off the track. There is no one to call 911 for HOURS if I get hurt by a horse. Which is why I adhere to training principles that are humane and effective and keep me safe.
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On leading a horse…as with all horse things…everyone has an opinion. Get 3 people in a discussion and get 5 opinions.
I have heard both, have the horse behind you (eg., the 45 degrees off the shoulder and the “tandem” position). I am in the camp that I want them at shoulder level.
I have seen an experienced cowboy horse breaker/fixer get savaged by a stallion when being led behind them. I saw someone get mounted by leading a stallion behind them.
Ergo, I want to be eye’s level even with the horse when leading so I can see what is going on. Anyone who has done dog training can related to the term “loose lead heeling.” That is what I want my horse. I walk off…they walk off. I stop…they stop. The lead stays loose at all times…unless one is correcting the horse.
Also, the horse has “his space” and I have “my space.” I can come into his space, but he cannot come into my space. That “space” is about 2-3 feet away from me.
Here are 2 videos that shows the “loose leash” method…but more along the position advocated by Palm Beach…a little behind the handler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1wnJH2tbu8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kl2iIpWqg
I personally prefer the horse to be where I am positioned about half-way between the horse’s head and shoulder (so I can have the horse in my peripheral vision) and about 2-3 feet away from me…so if mayhem is about to happen, I have some indication (from the peripheral vision) and some safe space (from the distance) to avoid getting hurt.
I had a young stallion that I could tell when he was “thinking evil thoughts” when his lip started to curl/move a funny way. I could see it when leading him and preemptively say “cut it out”…and we carried on and went on our way.
Choose your poison.
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I like my horse’s head about 2 ft off my right shoulder with slack in the leadrope. I want to be able to see his head in my peripheral vision so I can see what he’s doing and how he’s feeling. If his ears start swivelling and his eyes are getting big, I want to know that immediately.
And yes, I am leading the horse. The horse and mule have been taught to maintain that position and distance, although I generally give them a hand/voice signal or a little twitch in the lead rope to let them know I’m getting ready to make a change in pace or direction.
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Looks like there are some pretty bad stallions out there. For those of us who usually only handle mares and geldings, and the occasional colt, I’ll point out that when a horse is at shoulder level, it’s just a slight move forward and you are very well within kicking range. All genders can kick.
Most stallions are handled by professionals who are very well acquainted with stallion handling and will take precautions such as having two people on the head if there are even the slightest doubt as to the manners of the stallions. Not only because they want the employees to stay safe, but because the stallions are worth millions.
And shame on the people who are leaving colts intact that don’t have the prospect of being very successful stallions.
As I said…the fellow who got savaged by the stallion was a professional with extensive experience with difficult horses.
I stand by my position that having a horse anywhere outside of your peripheral vision is not good.
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Please, whom do you work with? Who would make someone wiggling a rope be sent to help in the kitchen or made to leave the program? What horseman on earth judges someone for what they do rather than the outcome they achieve and why should anyone take what they say seriously?
Quite a few “rope wigglers” are accomplished horsepeople, including a dressage FEI level judge and GP rider/trainer. They have no problem working with non-wigglers because they are accomplished horse people. Some accomplished horse people are not “wigglers”. Again, who are these people you work with and what have they accomplished? Sounds like they can’t tell an accomplished horseperson from dirt if their criteria is on-line methods.
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I agree that if you have your horses totally trained NH you could lead them 4 feet behind you, 10 feet behind you, with no halter, or with just a piece of twine over the neck. But I don’t in fact trust any horse 100 % all the time. Head at my shoulder, off to the side, in my line of vision is IMHO safest for most of us. If you have control of the head they can’t swing round and kick. And indeed my coach, who is very experienced, leads her stallions this was specifically so they don’t get studly behind her. We were having just this discussion last week in regard to some IRL NH in our local world.
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IKR - when I’m bringing in or turning out two horses, I need to be able to move them easily and quickly, maybe have one stand still and one move and we open a gate, go through, and close it again. Yep, I rope wiggle and point and my horses go where I tell them, or stand still if that is what I want, or back up a few steps so I can get the gate shut. And in this cold weather, I really don’t want to spill my coffee while I’m doing all that!!!
NH allowed macho horse trainers to be kind. Some of the big names are reverting back to before that.
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