Navicular--is it the kiss of death? Help!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
And they also diagnose it by blocking the foot - “removing” the pain. Where is this distinction you’re seeing between analgesic and mechanical?
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Pay careful attention, there may be a quiz: An analgesic affects the ability of the horse to feel pain without causing unconsciousness - analgesia does not affect the cause of pain, it affects the neurotransmission or reception of nervous impulses.

OTOH, mechanical palliation affects the cause of pain, it cannot affect either the neurotransmission of nervous impulses or their reception.

For example, if a horse has a nail stick in its frog, a bar shoe forged with a frog cradle is an extremely effective means of keeping the environment from placing direct pressure on the affected area because there’s steel between the injury and the ground.

Such a horse can feel pain if it occurs, but no pain occurs at the wound site because of the mechanical barrier. Entiendes?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Please feel free to cite any scientific study published for peer review that confirms any hypothesis that is in opposition to the mechanics of equid motion as I described. Muscle energy is transfered to motion by the action of tendons on bone and no “research” exists that contradicts that statement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I told you that I agreed with some of your points…this was one of them. It is your observations of shoeing to correct problems and the mechnaics involved with them that I and many others disagree with.

For your edification, “balance” is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to the entire bony column and is quite different from “alignment,” which is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to each another.
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I fully understand this…that is why I seperate them with an “and”. Both are required to achieve optimal form, function and comfort.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Except as a means of remodeling the hoof capsule, lowering the heels, regardless of the horse’s individual phalangeal alignment, has never been advocated by Butler, Stashak, Rooney, O’Grady, Chapman, or any other recognized authority. On the other hand, lowering the heels without regard to the individual’s natural alignment has been advocated by several proponents (Strasser, et al) of the so-called “natural” or “barefoot” movement, a group that uses the feral horse foot as a model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that you have mistaken me for a student of Strasser…

I never implied that heels should be lowered without regard to “natural” alignment. If I recall, I stressed correct alignment at all times…that is “correct” to the horse, not to the trimmer’s whim. I simplystated that you cannot address pathologies by NOT addressing correct alignment…that is by allowing heels to grow high or wedging them for long periods. I am guessing that you dismiss Pollitt’s efforts to examine what happens when this is done.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your inexperience is evident. Relative to farriery for incurable pathologies (e.g., fractures of the navicular bone, articular ringbone, pedal ostitis, etc.), “comfort” for the horse comes from the palliation of symptoms by mechanical means, not by the blind adherence to the untested protocols advocated by trendy, self-anointed gurus and folks in academia who confuse their observations with double blinds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who was discussing these types of pathologies? the discussion was focused on navicular and the symptoms that are called such. I never advocated not shoeing a horse nor did I even dismiss the use of therapeutic devices. I simply stated that their use had limitations and compromises. Your resistance to this concept exemplifies your lack of growth and exploration beyond the classroom.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Like many folks long on theory and short on experience, your obvious inexperience renders you unable to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes farriery. I read the textbooks and journals, not the vanity publications and advertisements: Perhaps you would do well to do the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I admit to inclucing the “vanity publications” in my reading…as I look to expand my mind and explore all venues open to me…my base of knowledge comes from the same books that yours does, I simply kept reading and didn’t turn off the light after I read the standards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To paraphrase Guy Clark, I’m a big fan of stuff that works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you? I guess that we would agree here…unless our definitions of what “works” is different from my expectations. Can you say that you have successfully restored at least 95+ percent of your charges to soundness without continued reliance of therapeutic devices? To me a decade of this type of work speaks for itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since your horse is responding favorably to the poured pads, you might ask your farrier and vet about using poured pads in conjunction with a pair of aluminum bars. The additional mass without added weight may be beneficial in terms of protection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a very interesting suggestion, as we have been discussing this just yesterday. I was in one of the farrier supply shops in Ocala this weekend, and the enormous variety of shoes available is truly mind-boggling. He did not do well earlier this year when he was briefly in eggbars, though admittedly, that was without his pads. I really like the eventer shoe, and I know that St. Croix makes them in aluminum, but not in a straight bar configuration. What shoe would you suggest that would be able to be drilled and tapped, would have more grip than plain shoes and is made in a straight bar configuration?

I don’t ask much, do I? I spent a great deal of time earlier this afternoon on the phone with the vet, and many of the factors point to coffin joint problems, so reducing concussion, which I understand a lighter shoe can help with, could be the one important shoeing change we could make. I also was told recently that an aluminum shoe can be a good choice for a horse with thin walls, also due to the lighter weight.

And not to be too much more difficult, but in the spirit of discussion, do I remember correctly that somewhere someone has claimed that aluminum shoes are detrimental to horses with navicular problems? Was this research or an unsupported theory?

Thanks a million for this discussion – I’ve learned a good bit too.

Libby

Good thing we have a supply of free popcorn here at work…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
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Senor Tomas!
Bienvenido!

I think we need to be a little more specific and correct in terminology here-I don’t think anyone suggested “whacking off the heels” of a NS horse…what I do think has been suggested here and supported by Gene Ovnicek of Natural Balance is returning the foot to a balanced state—achieved by lowering the heels over time(not whacking) and addressing the point of breakover, ultimately to achieve heel first landing.

Am I mistaken that this is the theory promoted by Gene? I will admit I could be, but I thought this was, at least in general terms, the theory of Natural Balance…

If I am correct in my understanding of Gene’s theory then there is someone quite successful in treating NS horses in this fashion.

It is apparent that corrective trimming will cure so called navicular syndrome. There is a good article about it on the site www.thehorseshoof.com

cyberbay

Do you mind giving me info on your horse? Conformational type, breed, weight, history of shoeing, riding (jumping, etc). Pictures would be great. I just wanna learn. Thanks! Barbara

LOL-it appears we have posted at the same time and reached the same conclusion.

I do however have a “follow-up” question or statement…are you saying Bowker just had this idea and has no real case studies to prove it…and this is the basis of his publications?
He never tested his lower the heel idea on any horses?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I have a question or two for you and the other hoof folks here concerning my gelding’s chronic lameness problems (possibly) due to a navicular bone cyst in his left front foot. He’s had problems off and on for years, and it wasn’t until extensive diagnostics (bone scanning) last summer that the cyst was detected.

Many remedies to try to ease his pain have been tried - bar shoes w/degree pads, NB shoes with frog pads, no shoes, shockwave treatments, etc. He has been out of work for a couple of years now (he’s a 17-yr-old QH), and I realize that there might not be much else I can do for him.
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He is now currently barefoot, with closed-cell foam pads taped to his fronts (changed periodically as they wear out). The foam pads enable full ground contact over his sole, which seems to give him the most relief.
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If the closed cell foam helps, you might ask your veterinarian about taping a hard polyurethane pad to the foot and using one of the soft acrylics as a filler between foot and pad. This will give roughly the same effect in terms of support for the bony column, but the materials are stronger and will last longer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
He does not block sound, and it’s thought to be because of “aberrant nerve(s)”, so the med center advised against any type of surgery.
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An accessory nerve supply to the foot has been described quite often in various texts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Last week, he received a trim where his toes were backed up about a 1/4" (from the top), as per my vet’s instruction.
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In order top facilitate turnover and reduce compression of the navicular bone by the deep digital flexor tendon, trimming the foot as short as practicable with as high an aligned phalangeal angle as is possible within normal parameters is more-or-less standard in most equine clinics. Turnover can be further enhanced by radiusing the leading edge of the hoof.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Opinions please - is this horse “all washed up” permanently, or is there something else I should try?
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Your question would be better addressed to the attending veterinarians. A public forum can offer general information, but a valid prognosis specific to an individual can only come from a veterinarian who has examined the individual.

I think they measure them one horse at a time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Who exactly is having “success” by whacking off the heels of horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome? Where are the tests published confirming the hypothesis? Where is the replication? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for you response, Mr. Stovall.

As for changing the foam padding over to a harder pad with acrylic filler, I do have concerns about “sealing his foot” up too much. As such, I have no problem with continuing with the foam padding, changed regularly, so I can keep a better eye on his sole and keep it aired out, so to speak. So far, this has worked better than anything else.

As for the opinions I requested, I truly was only looking for opinions and would not proceed with anything without consulting a professional first.

Unfortunately, my attending vet, along with the other vets I have consulted, along with the many experienced and well-respected conventional shoeing farriers I have consulted over the years, do not feel much can be done for my horse.

On the other hand, my current farrier, a conventional farrier for 25 years who switched her practice over a few years ago to exclusively barefoot trimming techniques, is the only one who has stuck by me in my quest to find something to help my horse.

I have consulted Steve O’Grady, as well as Dr. Kent Allen, both well-respected in their fields of expertise in equine lameness, and neither gave me any hope or suitable suggestions. In fact, Dr. Kent’s “diagnosis” was to “bute him up” if I wanted to continue to ride my horse. No, I did not take his advice as I considered it completely unacceptable.

That said, the naysayers won’t stop me from continuing to seek out more input, from whatever sources I can find. My goal, first and foremost, is to provide the most comfort possible for my horse, whether or not he can be ridden. His health and happiness is my top priority, and as long as he remains happy and willing to gallop around the pasture on his own on occasion, I will continue to believe there’s hope for more improvement for him.

Thanks again,
Liberty

In terms of numbers how do you define success? You laughed at slb’s statistics of success as impossible. And you say you are a fan of what works. How often does it have to work to be considered a success? Half the time? More, less?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Therein lies the difference between you and I and our approach to farriery. I define “success” as the application of whatever mechanical protocols will enable the horse to be both pain free and in use without deleterious effect.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not been able to read all the way through this but I have trimmed my horses for years and ridden to A levels and now do mostly dressage - compete- and my horses are barefoot. I am not going to criticize shoers or shoeing. I have one rescue horse with front shoes on right now - he came in with all 4 shoes and his feet are very soft. I can’t keep him - we have to find a home for him - he is at an EQ center looking for a home. The farrier I use on him I LOVE dearly and he is terrific. And he actually helps trim some of my horses at home because I do not have the back for it.

From everything I have read about navicular and experienced (which I work with hundreds of rescue TBs and I see a lot of cases - also we have had several in the family - AND two of my close friends had horses with navicular).

Firstly - ‘navicular’ is a bone and in layman’s terms - a horse gets navicular pain when a lack of blood flow within the area make the bone get spiney teeth on them - this is a very layman’s description - but it is sometimes the best way to explain it. For years past, it was believed this was a disease - something a horse has perhaps in his genes. In the years recent, they separated it between Navicular Disease and Navicular Syndrome. The Syndrome is when the conditions are right for the condition to occur. The conditions might be poor shoeing - shoeing too tightly and restricting blood flow. Arguementably, some believe that shoeing in general can cause the conditions (although we know that not all shod horses get navicular pain… so that can’t be true - and I am a barefooter). However, I do think that a lot of horses that have the pain got it from shoeing - perhaps because other factors like use and conformation also play into it.

That said - I have a few friends with horses that developed navicular pain before their horses were 5 and never been shod. Ironically, they were ALL color-bred Quarter Horses, 2 paints and a palomino. All three were huge boned and over 16 hands. The third one - when I saw her - I knew she woudl get the pain. She just looked conformationally exactly like the first two. I do not think with them it was a DISEASE but I certainly think their big bodies and their tiny legs contributed to it.

Anyways - I think also it has to do with use - a horse in shoes used as a jumper and to do things that cause a lot of concussion - those horses I see get the pain in their teens. When I grew up we pulled the shoes on horses in the winter - let their feet grow out and then shod through show season. None of us ever encountered navicular pain.

Anyways - the original thread was - is there hope? I hate to give false hope but there is a lot out there by way of research lately - drugs to try to help break down those ‘teeth’ - methods to stimulate the blood flow to try to get the condition to reverse - which some people scoff at but I have seen it happen - usually not in cases that have gone as far as yours though. Usually in horses with a little pain and a certain degree of change to get worried - and then with different therapies - like, yes, barefooting - the condition did reverse.

My friend who is a shoer - he admits that bar shoes and the like - that is one of the best ways shoeing can help a horse - it helps to relieve pain - but if a horse is having the problem to begin with because he needs to go barefoot and let his feet spread and breathe and pump more blood into it - the condition will get worse - the shoeing will just help control the pain for a short while and then you find yourself where you are - where the shoeing that way doesn’t help.

I think it is a personal decision what you do. I think you are looking closer at a better chance at a remedy or at least a way to get him better - by doing barefoot therapy. That is my personal opinion.

But I am not blaming shoeing as the reason for navicular pain - if that were true - most horses would have it. I think there are loads of conditions that play into it - a horse that works hard - jumping, reining, whatever. A horse that works on hard ground a lot. A horse that is physically conformated to be predisposed to it under just a few circumstances. A horse shod and kept in too small of shoes. A horse perhaps always shod every day of his life. A horse where his owner keeps forgetting her checkbook so he goes 10-12 weeks between shoeing on a regular basis…

I think that the pain comes from growth on the navicular bone that breaks into soft tissue and causes pain. Those growths are made by a lack of blood flow and health within the foot. I just wrote a bunch of conditions that can contribute. I think to heal it - if it is possible - is to look at the way the horse is worked and kept and try to eliminate the condition that is causing it. That is why I advocate at least TRYING barefoot therapy. But then, the reason I say it has to be a personal decision is - the horse will go through a period of discomfort. The bar shoes do take weight off the spot where they get pain when stepping there. Some people say - my horse is too old and doesn’t do anything but mosey so I won’t put him through the transition period to barefoot therapy… I can understand that.

And that said - the three horses I know that had it before age 5 and never shod (well one had been shod) - they went through barefoot therapy and it did not help them - their bodies were too damn big for their legs and I think their conformation just wronged them.

Two of these were mares and they went to the breeding shed. Oh my word.

Thanks so much for your suggestions – that is exactly the sort of info I was looking for – my farrier is the only one in our area that has a welder on his rig, but I don’t know if he welds aluminum – that is something I will pester him about right away.

Since we don’t really have a diagnosis of the “N” word, the heart type bar shoe might be helpful – we are thinking that he has more of a DIJ problem, with potentially sore heels from abnormally loading heels to compensate for the sore DIJ – it is an idea, anyway. The vet mentioned that sometimes when you see no joint fluid once the hub goes into the joint, the joint may have moved from the overproduction of fluid stress stage, to the not enough fluid stage, which would explain the increase in his discomfort.

At any rate, I’d like to make him as comfortable as possible, and at the same time make sure I’m not running around in blinders, just because I don’t want to hear that he has “Navicular” – at this point, whatever you call it, I would like to stop it from getting any worse

Oh, and LMH – I was reading the vet’s report from the 2002 hoof balancing with x-rays and he wanted to get the right fore to 52-53 degrees. Which is where we are and now he says that that is “broken forward” – silly vet, doesn’t know what he wants It just goes to show you that nothing on these beasts is ever static, which is why I really monitor them like I do – and why I ended up without the funds to take that manure spreader off your hands! I’ve learned that the downside to catching every little problem is that it can be expensive But, I’d rather do it that way – I can keep pushing the wheelbarrow for a while!

Thanks for the suggestions!

Libby

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
um, so you’re answering your own questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes’m (Yessir?). For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational.

That said, please understand that the class is not mandatory. The reader controls what he reads, not the author.

GUESS WHAT??

there is something about hooves that make horse people crazy insane-

heres a thought…how about there are horses everywhere who need a little bit of this and a little bit of that?

personally one of my guys HAD to have shoes on to correct some issues-however dutch made the decision yesterday that perhaps maybe just maybe the shoes can be pulled next time—i have another horse who needs shoes in the summer because he cant walk across the gravel in the driveway-should i make him tyough it out so he gets used to it and can eventually go barefoot? no–why should i make him have to suck it up when i can immediately make him confortable? but thats jusy my opinion-in the winter he goes barefoot—

i think everyone has valid arguements— lets just all be nice and not be snarky–i dont have enough popcorn to go all around and i have rubn out of room on my couch after the whole probation thread on off course…

speaking of off ourse, tom and dutch i would LOFF your input on the “should i ask out the farrier” thread on off course…of course dutch and i discussed it yesterday during his visit at the barn, but his opinions on the matter along with toms would be fun all the same

Your assessment of anatomy is correctly presented; however, your assessment of mechanics is no longer considered valid…much research has been conducted to dispute it. While I agree on some of your points, “lowering heels” has little to do with “natural” anything…it has to do with correctly balancing and aligning the feet as per Butler,Adams and others. Treating pathologies has to do with restoring balance and alignment to allow for optimal form and function. Hindering blood flow or purposely misaligning joints does not promote healing in any form. Regardless of if the horse can be “healed”, comfort comes from goals of optimal alignment and balance. If the heels are too high or permanently wedged, they cannot contribute to correct balance/alignment within the hoof and complementary structures.

You guys have about 20 years of reading to catch up on…and don’t forget to close the cave door when you leave.

Keeping heels low IS necessary in keeping proper hoof form. Horses running in their natural environment maintain very low heel. It is only through incompetent hoof care of horses being kept in confined soft environments that horses have heel height which leads to navicular, contraction and circulation impediment due to a non functioning frog