Need help with confusing rules - Regulation bits for hunters

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=GoneAway;7347098]
Absolutely nothing unconventional or improper about a loose ring on a hunter. It is a perfectly acceptable bit. High fashion? Probably not, but if you’re going to be concerned about a loose ring vs. Dee and how it will affect your horse’s placing, then you’re probably worried about the wrong things.[/QUOTE]

Based on your blog and use of a loose ring for your horse, I would imagine that you are a bit biased. I’ve never seen a hunter in the A show ring in a loose ring. I’ve seen plenty of them at schooling shows…

[QUOTE=M. Owen;7347283]
I don’t recall loose rings being a “stylish” bit for hunters in the time I’ve been involved (since about 1985 or so). In the 80s/ early 90s I primarily recall full cheeks and the smaller racing dees, then starting in late 90s/ early 2000 predominantly the big hunter dee. JMO, but the straight part of a big hunter dee is so long I feel like it has some of the benefits of a full cheek.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I didn’t even see a loose ring other than in a catalog until I came back to riding in the late 90s. I was at a mixed use facility and surrounded by eventers and dressage riders, thus a ton of loose rings.

Personally, I’m not a fan of them because I prefer something that isn’t in danger of pinching my horse’s mouth. (and I think they are ugly. I much prefer a D, a full cheek or even an eggbutt before a loose ring. )

[Jumper_girl221]

Second the pelham with a curb strap vs. a chain…use a nice short shank and I’ll betcha it will give the same feel as your curb.

I’ve “used” a loose ring, but that was with a mare that did quite well it one. Most of mine do prefer a D or a full cheek since its a bit more stable in the mouth.

[GoneAway]

@RugBug;7347310

Based on your blog and use of a loose ring for your horse, I would imagine that you are a bit biased. I’ve never seen a hunter in the A show ring in a loose ring. I’ve seen plenty of them at schooling shows…

Even if I’m biased and like loose rings, how does that make what I’m saying wrong? You were the one that called them unconventional. They are perfectly conventional, just not popular. There is a difference. I admit it’s been awhile since I’ve competed in rated hunters myself, but the barn I’m currently at has a couple horses competing at A rated shows in loose rings and pin just fine.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=GoneAway;7347487]
Even if I’m biased and like loose rings, how does that make what I’m saying wrong? You were the one that called them unconventional. They are perfectly conventional, just not popular. There is a difference. I admit it’s been awhile since I’ve competed in rated hunters myself, but the barn I’m currently at has a couple horses competing at A rated shows in loose rings and pin just fine.[/QUOTE]

Well, you apparently have a different definition of unconventional than I do. I subscribe to the definition that unconventional is “not based on or conforming to what is generally done.” :shrug:

[MHM]

^ Now all I can think about is how much we could use a shrug smilie on here! :lol:

[M_Owen]

Totally derailing, but I am going to say while I personally wouldn’t use a loose ring in the hunters, I agree with GoneAway that is it a conventional bit. When I think of unconventional, I think of things like the 2 or 3 rings, gags, mylers (or is it mylar?), etc.

Again, not really directly on topic, but it is kind of funny when you think what having a normal looking hunter dee can hide inside the horse’s mouth. I remember the first time I saw a segunda bit back in the early 90s. My friend had a luggy, big, old-fashioned warmblood she used primarily for equitation, and after she aged out jumpers. She had been showing the horse in a pelham, but he had a tendency to get really curled up in it and just bear down and get long and flat if she had a long distance, then the rest of her course was ruined. She changed trainers at one point and suddenly I saw her at shows with what appeared to be a full cheek snaffle with the horse going MUCH better. I was like wow, new trainer is working miracles with you guys! She responded, come by my trailer at the end of the day. Lo and behold, I saw my first segunda with an enormous port, lol. It was my first lesson in what you see on the outside of a bit may have nothing to do with what is on the inside.

[RugBug]

@M. Owen;7347638

Totally derailing, but I am going to say while I personally wouldn’t use a loose ring in the hunters, I agree with GoneAway that is it a conventional bit. When I think of unconventional, I think of things like the 2 or 3 rings, gags, mylers (or is it mylar?), etc.

Oh, I only think a loose ring is unconventional in the hunters. Anywhere else and it’s almost de rigueur.

Again, not really directly on topic, but it is kind of funny when you think what having a normal looking hunter dee can hide inside the horse’s mouth.

I never make judgments regarding a bit someone is using just by looking at the cheek pieces. There can be way too much hiding in the horse’s mouth that it would be silly to do so.

[M_Owen]

I never make judgments regarding a bit someone is using just by looking at the cheek pieces. There can be way too much hiding in the horse’s mouth that it would be silly to do so.

I know better now, but I was naive back then, lol. I don’t think there were as many off the rack options for bits back then. At least in my area, if the mouth piece wasn’t fairly “normal” like a slow twist, cork screw, double twisted wire, etc, it was custom made or at least had to be ordered from a catalog at the tack shop.

[JenEM]

I would think that if you want to walk into the ring giving yourself the best chance of winning, you’d want your horse in the bit it went best in, because you’re going to get the best trip out of it. If that’s an unpopular but “legal” bit, like a loose ring, so be it. I hate full cheeks, but you know what mine jumps in? Yep, full cheek. Know what’s almost the uniform bit in dressage? Loose rings, and we don’t use one of those either–she goes in a baucher. I wouldn’t use the baucher in a hunter class, even the local ones we go to for milage, because that to me IS “unconventional” while the full cheek has a similar action but is “conventional.”

Frequently, I think it would be so much nicer if there was a section of “legal” and “illegal” bits like the dressage and eventing dressage have. These are the legal cheek pieces, use ANY of them! These are the legal mouthpieces, combine with cheeks at will! It would make these threads so much easier.

So OP, I agree with the others on here suggesting pelham, perhaps with some sort of curb chain modification.

[PoohLP]

[QUOTE=M. Owen;7347638]

Again, not really directly on topic, but it is kind of funny when you think what having a normal looking hunter dee can hide inside the horse’s mouth. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, it irks me that it is taboo to use a bit with a little light poll pressure on a horse that prefers it, but someone can fill their horse’s mouth with twisted wire or giant ports, so long as there is a Dee attached to it. But when in Rome…

This is just for local shows for mileage, so I’m not too concerned about popularity, but do want to conform to general norms. I’ll probably use my loose ring, as that is what I have that works best for my horse right now. My horse is young and at one of those, “I’m almost making a breakthrough moment,” with regards to the quality of his canter and his willingness to accept the bit and I don’t want to shake things up too much or put something on him that will send us backwards. If, after next weekend, it looks like I’m going to take him to bigger shows and do hunter classes, I might play around a little. In the meantime, if his attitude is cooperative and amenable that day, the loose ring will be fine for a simple hunter course at a local show - if he feels like a live rocket ready to explode, I’ll just use a 2 or 3-ring and consider it a win just to have a good round over decorated jumps somewhere new. :o

The show has some jumper classes I can take him in, but they don’t have the height I want (2’6) for this show so I’m having to step him down a level (2’3 - which he will walk over), because, as this is our first show in quite a while, I don’t want to step him up to 2’9 (even though we’re schooling 3ft at home). They do have plenty of 2’6 classes in Hunters and EQ though, so I guess I’ll relive my glory days as a hunter princess.

[Janet]

Considering that the PICTURE in the Rule Book, for hunt seat equitation CLEARLY SHOWS a loose ring snaffle, it would be very difficult to claim that a loose ring was “unconventional” for show hunters.

Out of fashion - no longer popular - sure. The jacket in that picture is not seen much nowadays either. Nor the number of braids. There is no saddle pad. The headgear doesn’t comply with current rules.

But NOT “unconventional” in the rule book sense.

[Juxtapoze]

I’ve tried about 8 different bits for my horse. I think a Pelham will be your best as an acceptable substitute for your 2-ring elevator. They felt pretty similar with my guy and the Pelham gives me that little extra leverage when needed. Borrow one from a friend and take it for a spin or make sure to buy from a place you can return it if needed in case your horse doesn’t like it.

If you are set against a Pelham, a Full Cheek is probably your next safe bet. I use both - Pelham for days I need a little extra “Whoa” or am doing more collected work, Full Cheek for the days I want to ride with a loopy rein or don’t need the extra leverage.

Good luck. It’s a lot of trial & error for some horses.

[Classic]

Great reply Lucassb!

[Kestrel]

About 10 years ago I attended an “Ask the Judge” clinic, where I asked Sue Ashe if she would penalize my horse in a hunter class if I were to show in front of her in a loose ring snaffle. She said she would not penalize us, and would actually like to see the loose ring used more. Now I’ve also seen Sue say she would hate something and not use a pair using that tack, but then turn around and pin them first, so go figure. I almost always showed my old guy in a full cheek over fences, and managed to win when we got all the distances. When he decided to pull like a freight train, I used a Waterford, but I don’t suppose the judges knew that.