Need ideas to help soften neck

[retrofit]

[QUOTE=lstevenson;4245648]
The problem is NOT the neck. When a horse feels stiff or rigid in the neck, jaw, or poll, it’s always the back that is not working properly. You will never have true success unless you fix the root of the problem. If you work on the neck, poll, or jaw by itself, your horse may feel better in your hand, but it’s false. As the back is the key to the hindquarters being available.

Correct bending and stretching excercises, getting the horse to properly move through it’s back is your answer.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with what lstevenson has posted. The neck is nothing more than a mirror of the back.

[Karoline]

You need to treat the whole horse, but saying that horses cannot have problems in the neck that cause tension in the back is incorrect. In fact, horses can have problems in their sacrum, legs, shoulder, etc… that will translate into back stiffness and in remedying them, you then get a swinging back. Its not fix the back and it fixes the neck or sacrum every time. Sometimes the neck is a mirror of the back, sometimes the back is a mirror of the neck.

Regarding flipping the crest and flexions, I asked Dr. Heuschmann this very question since he works with Philip Karl and he had never heard of the concept of flipping the crest. In doing flexions the key element is the wait and never pulling or holding.

As slc2 points out, to create suppleness you must have a relaxed topline, or if you prefer muscles that are working in “positive” tension or decontraction - you cannot bend something solid or rigid, to ask topline muscles to contract is the exact opposite of what is been sought. Now, in doing flexions, if they are done slowly where the head swivels at the poll, what happens is that the golgi tendons gets fooled into release and the neck muscles and poll muscles decontract allowing relaxation and softness. These flexions do not need to be anything more then enough to see the eyelash to create a muscular reaction.

[lstevenson]

@Karoline;4250487

You need to treat the whole horse, but saying that horses cannot have problems in the neck that cause tension in the back is incorrect.

Sometimes the neck is a mirror of the back, sometimes the back is a mirror of the neck

What proves your theory wrong is that when you “work” on the neck to rid it of the tension, the tension often remains in the back. But every time you work on the back to relieve the tension there, the whole body becomes relaxed.

[nhwr]

What proves your theory wrong is that when you “work” on the neck to rid it of the tension, the tension often remains in the back. But every time you work on the back to relieve the tension there, the whole body becomes relaxed.
This is potentially a gross simplification of the issue. While horses often do improve when you have their backs, it is also just as likely to be the case that the issue lies elsewhere. It might be a problem with a tooth, improper saddle fit, perhaps there is some injury or weakness in the neck or the atlas is a bit out, an uncomfortable bit etc. The problem might be insignificant at home if the issue is realtively minor or the horse is stoic. But the added stress of competition could bring it to the surface. I once had a horse that had a mild suspensory strain that first showed itself this way.

There are many different possibilities.
If the horse is generally submissive and accepting of the aids at home, I would have a good lameness vet and/or chiro evaluate the situation.

[Carol_Ames]

soft Laser

This a good place to use a laser and how grand prix show jumpers use it:yes: You will be amazed :winkgrin:at the change in her behavior:yes:

[Carol_Ames]

change of mouthpiece

sometimes it is as simple as a change of mouthpiece of the bit; from a “nutcracker” to one which eliminates pressure:eek: on the bars

[Karoline]

[QUOTE=lstevenson;4250762]
What proves your theory wrong is that when you “work” on the neck to rid it of the tension, the tension often remains in the back. But every time you work on the back to relieve the tension there, the whole body becomes relaxed.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if we are speaking of two different things? I dont think you resolve stiffness by working the neck alone. I also dont think you resolve stiffness or tension by working the back alone. You relieve tension or stiffness by riding the whole horse. And absolutely you are right that the long back muscles must be relaxed for the horse to be truly through. Its easy to fake collection by rounding the front by force.

Basically, there is no such things are segmentation in the topline muscles. They all attach and merge with each other to create a continuum from poll to tail so that what happens in the gluts as an impact in the poll. Its really one long channel. And I agree that when a horse is locked in his back, unlocking it will create dramatic improvement in the front and back end - and usually, visible gait amelioration.

What I am saying pertains to actual physical problems that can be located in the neck, sacrum, ribcage, etc… and would create a situation that would not be “fixable” by working on suppling the back alone. Though helping these problems would have an impact on the back and the whole body. I have for example worked on a horse that had a neck like concrete, he could not reach out to get a sugar litterally because of how he was ridden in the bridle. He needed neck muscle therapy and reeducation - handson/under saddle- to loosen the neck muscles and by extension the long back muscles.

To help rid a horse of tension in my opinion you need proper spinal alignment, relaxation of the topline, and the right tempo for that particular horse. To help with stiffness, you ride the whole body on bended lines (I gave examples), use baby shoulder fore, shoulder in, 1/4, 1/2 walk pirrouettes in show tempo when applicable, etc…

I agree with you that there are many ways to work the neck of the horse alone, or to demand more hindleg under that does nothing to allow throughness - a soft, elastic back that conducts the connectivity from back to front smoothly without blockage - and damage the back, creating more and more stiffness and restriction.

[lstevenson]

@nhwr;4250811

This is potentially a gross simplification of the issue. While horses often do improve when you have their backs, it is also just as likely to be the case that the issue lies elsewhere. It might be a problem with a tooth, improper saddle fit, perhaps there is some injury or weakness in the neck or the atlas is a bit out, an uncomfortable bit etc. The problem might be insignificant at home if the issue is realtively minor or the horse is stoic. But the added stress of competition could bring it to the surface. I once had a horse that had a mild suspensory strain that first showed itself this way.

Of course the horse could have a physical problem anywhere in it’s body. But when a horse is sound and healthy, and we are talking about resistance and/or tension under saddle, ie training issues not physical issues, the state of tension in the back is what controls the tension in the neck, poll, and jaw.

[nhwr]

Of course the horse could have a physical problem anywhere in it’s body. But when a horse is sound and healthy, and we are talking about resistance and/or tension under saddle, ie training issues not physical issues, the state of tension in the back is what controls the tension in the neck, poll, and jaw.
But it is not clear that we are discussing a training issue. When a horse is generally compliant at home and away, but shows resistance in a particular movement and in a particular direction, it is more likely to be a physical problem than a training issue, IMO.

[lstevenson]

@nhwr;4250868

But it is not clear that we are discussing a training issue. When a horse is generally compliant at home and away, but shows resistance in a particular movement and in a particular direction, it is more likely to be a physical problem than a training issue, IMO.

Of course the horse should be checked out by a vet to make sure there is no physical problem, especially if this is a new problem. But you miss the point. My comments were towards those who were reccomending addressing the “stiffness” in the neck directly as a training issue. And if the horse is sound, and what the rider feels as stiffness in the neck is a training issue (which it most likely is, after all the OP says the horse is fine at home), then the only answer that actually fixes the root of the problem is to address the tension in the back, not the neck.

[Karoline]

I agree somewhat with you on that last post LS. If its a matter of training only then you should work the whole horse (again) and not fixate on the neck. It is very true that the health of the long back muscles (also abdominal wall and intercoastals) play a major role not just in the neck’s health but also the hindquarters’.

[slc2]

The only answer that fixes the root of the problem is fixing the root of the problem. There is a reason the horse gets tight in the back, too. It doesn’t jus ttighten up its back muscles for no reason; that isn’t the end of the chain of events. Once again one can do all the loosening exercises one wants, if one doesn’t get at the reason for it, it won’t be resolved.