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Need Strong Talking-To...Making Horse into a Danger w/ Constant Treats & Nipping

You can teach him manners and to follow you without treats and clicker training.

Give him as many treats as you like as long as they are healthy. Just put them i his feed bin and do not give by hand.

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Yes, good points. I want the handler there for a lead line ride for the first while. More my nerves than anything.

The protocol with the colt starter was for me to stay super quiet in the saddle after mounting and as we ride away. So we don’t have leaning forward to treat from rge saddle in our repertoire. I do it all the time with other horse and it made her happier at the mounting block.

I’m kind of feeling things out with the project horse. I like using treats and we may end up integrating them but if she gets over excited it’s counterproductive.

Ha, I’ve got the overexcited covered in my protocols. I gradually extend the time between getting the halt/stand and offering the treat to the point that if I were mounted I could adjust something (usually my pants lol, but could be girth, stirrups, etc) before they get the treat. The treat turns into the signal that the standing around is over. They learn to stand really still. I had one who would refuse to move until the full protocol was done every ride, years and years after being backed. He was a special cupcake lol.

Current mare is generally fabulous, and will stand for hours (not quite literally) with no treat expected to break the halt/stand, but occasionally needs a reminder at the mounting block when the weather turns colder and she is eager to find some foolishness to get her adrenaline fix.

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I used to feed enough candy to a barn full of 20+ ASB’s and hackneys and never had an issue with any of them biting or being overly pushy. A couple were pushier for me to scratch certain itchy spots they couldn’t get.

I hand feed my pony all the time… and so do my kids and people at the barn, he wouldn’t ever dream of biting anyone.

My pony follows me even without candy though… he’s just a people person.

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Constant treats can indeed become a problem. The horse doesnt understand when the faucet is turned off and tries all kinds of behaviors to get it back on. He needs rules!

I am a treat feeder (much to my barn owner’s dismay) Because my horse is pushy by nature, I have set times and circumstances that earn a treat. I also announce “treat” as it is produced. He gets a carrot piece when I say foot and he picks up the first foot. When he is standing politely with his head forward he gets another piece as I tighten the girth. And, of course a piece of sugar comes with his bit. When he does something difficult or new under saddle I may stop him and tap one side of his neck and he reaches around for a sugar! BO didnt want me giving a treat when I turned him out for fear he will be pushy with her and staff. So there is a specific place on the fenceline away from the gate that he will walk to and I will give him his goodbye treat over the fence.
I have had to make few corrections (mostly early on) but I do make sure he really knows that he does NOT open his mouth on a human! And most of those were inappropriate “play” nips rather than treat seeking.

Good on you for recognizing that there is an issue, and for admitting your own contributions to that issue, OP! No need to ask internet strangers to lay into you, you know where the issue is.

You have gotten lots of great advice here! Now just work on implementing some of the tips you have been given. Having a horse who is a respectful and willing teammate should be more rewarding than stuffing him full of treats :slight_smile:

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That is because they don’t bite with you. The bite the next person who does not have candy.

It is not every horse that learns to bite, but a high enough percentage that it is not a food practice to do.

Nope, he has never bitten anyone that I am aware of in 9 years of ownership and is super respectful. I always get complimented on how easy he is to handle from boarding barns over the years. He’s been used in summer camps and plenty of chances to bite total beginners if he wanted too.

He’s my unicorn on the ground and a total hellion under saddle. :slight_smile:

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Nope. It’s all in making expectations that a horse should always behave safely and sticking to one’s convictions, driving the message home as sharply and as often as necessary until the horse understands.

My former biter can be left alone in the crossties with an 8yo kid fawning over her and reading her stories and occasionally handing out a treat and I have absolutely no worries that kid will get bitten. Another example - taking a mint out of an octogenarian’s arthritic curled up, non-flattenable hand, again no worries about the loss of fingers. Because the rules of engagement are clear and there was never any leeway from day one. Mind you, it took Miss Bitey Pants over a YEAR of constant rules enforcement to become that trustworthy.

Another “case” came to me as a grown up, spoilt 5yo gelding. His owner had never given him a treat by hand, but he had a dreadful biting habit, bordering on dangerous. No, actually dangerous :confused: That horse got fixed by a combination of absolutely strict enforcement of the rules of engagement and … hand fed treats for good behaviour.

None of the treat thing is actually about treats, it’s about raising one’s expectations of the horse’s behaviour and being consistent and persistent always and forever more. Treats are merely a reward for bad behaviour that has already happened. If the bad behaviour is never allowed, the treats never reinforce bad behaviour.

So for instance, if a horse in the learning stage of the rules of engagement reaches out to touch a human, NOPE! That behaviour gets stopped. Reaching out to gently touch a human softly (not poking, not bopping, etc.) doesn’t get to happen until a very high degree of understanding about what sort of touch is acceptable when interacting with a human has been established.

It’s not rocket science, but it is very, very, very hard for many people because we just want them to love us and we’ve been told that the way to the heart is through food LOL. The way to any horse’s heart is with absolutely fair and absolutely consistent reinforcement of boundaries.

All that said, many people shouldn’t feed treats because they can’t be trusted to be absolutely fair and consistent all the time.

And that said, not feeding treats does not guarantee that a horse will not try to communicate through biting.

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That is because YOU put the training into the horses. The horse that would have bitten someone else was the horse being trained to bite before coming to you.

Our Sim is one of those horses that cannot be fed by hand by an amateur. He came here from a riding school. He had bitten someone as he was the horse near the wash bay. She was leaning on the rail.

He also kicked twice when free. As in the worker flicked a lunge whip at him as he was going past.

This horse should not be fed by hand. Sure I can feed him by hand with no worries. I can control him with a look, but he is not a pet and is better away from Ammies with or without treats.

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Please read for comprehension. Treats don’t cause biting. Treats can reinforce both good and bad behaviours. It is not difficult to train a horse to never bite anyone, but it takes determination, will power, and plenty of time.

If you can feed your one horse by hand, but no-one else can, your training of manners on that horse is not complete. They need to be trained to respect all sizes, shapes, and abilities of humans equally. There is no, Dobbin is my special baby so he won’t bite me, but he will bite an ammy. That horse is not fully trained in how to interact with humans. This happens to too many horses - we get tired of training and say, “Good enough. I’m safe, so I will just warn off everyone else.” Bad horsemanship and a let down for the horse who doesn’t have a clear set of boundaries across the board.

Lack of boundaries, lack of clear reinforcement of rules, and laziness are what cause horses to become bad citizens. It is easier to say no treats and hope that’s sufficient to tamp down biting than it is to put the hours into properly installing higher level manners. I will always choose option B because, although it’s the long way round, I always end up with a super fun, extremely communicative horse who I can trust with anyone and who has a built-in concrete, safe, and fully understandable reward system for troubling questions (teaching to load, etc) and extra efforts (learning new tasks such as piaffe, etc)

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@sascha :+1:
Absolutely!
This is my TWH surrounded by my totally non-horsy city friends.
I never worried for a minute that he’d react to being “mobbed” for the photo.
Part of that is who he is, part he knows (from my training) how to respect humans’ space

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And the training is exactly what we are talking about. The giving a treat for training is not what it means, it is people willy nilly giving treats to all horses in a barn that can cause problems. They are training without knowing they are training.

Sim is not a pet and as said I can do anything with him with a look or word from afar, but hubby is an ammy and also does not do as he is told.

Sim has not kicked or bitten since coming here, as I said that happened at the riding school.

Sim is not like other horses. I have not said the same thing about the other horses here. They can be fed by hand, it is not a problem.

Sim has been here for 10 years. With me saying do not feed by hand.

He is the hardest horse I have ever retrained, he has gone from feral to actually looking like a horse.

I go into the laundry. Hubby is setting up feeds. One feed bin is on the washing machine with Sim with his head stretched and can just reach above it. Hubby is giving him a carrot, put one in the feed bin, one to Sim one in the next feed bin. One to Sim, one to third feed bin etc.

Do not feed by hand. You will end up with him going for you. Do not feed him without a halter on until I say you can.

Sim is wonderful under saddle. He has no buck. He is a lovely looking horse. Butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth. He looks so cute with his ears forward. He comes when called. He stands with no halter to be tacked

On the ground he is trained at liberty, his manners are impeccable. He gives space to be fed.

I have done all I can do. I warn hubby daily.

Hubby also gives him carrots from the ute when he brings the carrots home, at the front door, whenever Sim appears. 10 years. Sim has him wrapped around his little hoof.

Did you just him a carrot.

No.

Sim: crunch crunch crunch.

Until I go away for work for 3 weeks.

3 weeks being retrained solely by an ammy. I got the call that Sim charged him, knocked him down and gave him a black eye. Hubby is over 6 foot and not slim. No sympathy from me. I told you he would go you if you continued doing what you are doing.

He didn’t have a go at me. He went for me. I did not say he would have a go at you, I said he would go you. And what did he do afterwards?

He backed up and said sorry.

So he didn’t really go you.

Yes he did.

No he didn’t. If he had really gone for you he would have reared and come down on you and you would be dead. He would have spun and double barreled you in the head and you would be dead.

He was lucky.

He put the halter on to feed and didnt give carrots by hand for about 3 weeks. Guess what is happening now.

Feeding willy nilly does not matter to all horses but if you get a problem one then the problem becomes the person not using it for training and can’t say no.

So if I get hit by a truck Sim will need to go to my instructor and him find an experienced home for him. Hubby is not capable of giving him a forever home.

I know that won’t happen because hubby loves him like a son.

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well, the OP is asking for help to train herself.
Laudable endeavor.

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You are blaming your horse for your inability to train something with the capability to reason, who, presumably understands English, and who is a grown ass adult capable of understanding small chores like cutting carrots and arranging feed tubs.

Your horse is no different than any other opportunistic horse that hasn’t been given 100% reinforcement of rules for however long it takes to get them instilled, and has had a menace egging on the unacceptable behaviours.

It is absolutely correct to say don’t hand feed this horse (because x,y,z, prefer to save marriage over teaching husband, etc.)

It is also absolutely incorrect to make that a blanket statement for all horses and all people.

Also, fwiw, current horse came to me as an started 7yo leader of her small herd who had lived pretty much semi-final her whole life. I took that as a challenge, not a point of defeat. She is happier for that. On the scale of horses being social, she is off the charts. She will talk to anyone (horse, human, cat, dog) and I’m glad I can allow that.

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Please read and reread Abbie.S’ post. You need it.

Every once in a great while, an occasional new horse of mine has had to learn that i’m an animal too. With me, it’s just instinctual and fast, hard, over.

I move my small domestic herd (8 or 10) horses in and out every day. In the winter, it’s easier to get them IN in the evening, in the summer, it’s easier to get them to go out to pasture. (because of where more food resides). So, to provide encouragement to come in/go out, sometimes i feed treats (peanuts in the shell, cut carrots, pieces of alfalfa cubes) if i happen to have them in any of my pockets. My operating theory is: Intermittent reward has a bigger impact. When dispensing treats, no horse is allowed to get in my face/space. They either take them politely or they get passed over this time.

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I give my guy most of his treats out of a treat ball. He gets that after work and he has to roll it around to get all the baby carrots and other goodies out of it. Occasionally, I’ll dump some in his grain bucket, but those are just inhaled. The treat ball makes them last a little longer and gives him something to do in his stall for 20 minutes or so.

I will give a couple baby carrots at the mounting block, but the lion’s share of the goodies comes from the treat ball.

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As has been said above this is not related to getting a treat. This horse has put herself above you and feels she can treat you as beneath her in the pecking order. Nobody even thinks of biting the alpha in the herd.

All 3 of mine get a treat when we go out to halter them 90% of the time. If they don’t get one they don’t look for one. If they get one they take it gently and are happy with that. This is how it should be. It all has to do with the way you interact with your horse on a daily basis and if they respect the boundaries set in place.

I suspect that your horse has been allowed ( even if in a subtle way) to get the upper hand in this partnership and you are seeing it now.

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