Need to 'medicate'??

[SouthernYankee]

Just wanted to give a little update, and thanks for all the helpful feedback. I’m apologetic to the older hunters in our group about her ‘enthusiasm’ and everyone assures me that she’s doing great for only being hunted 5 times. I am very thankful for their understanding.

I decided to go the Ace route, along with trying a few new things.

• She’s on SmartCalm pellets from Smartpak, she is about 2 months into them now and I think I can feel a difference when we just hack out. Overall she’s much less moody. Does anyone have something else they would recommend?
• For hunting I give her 1cc Ace about 45 minutes before mounting up, she’s got a high tolerance for it apparently and still jigs when we are hacking out. She will stand quietly until the hounds are out. She isn’t spooky, just ready to chase the hounds. It is a controllable jig and she isn’t spooky/dirty. I can live with ‘quiet’ jigging.
• I have tried playing around with bits and have settled on a 3 ring elevator with a fat snaffle. It’s harsher than I thought I wanted to go but she had an immediate positive reaction to it both on a road hack and hunting last weekend. She’s ratable and is much easier to steer. I’m no longer wearing myself out arguing with her about how fast we need to be going and I feel like I can finally do the ‘less is more’ approach.

Just those 3 ‘little’ changes have made her much more workmanlike, although I’m sure it’s also her getting seasoned and figuring everything out. She’s spot on with the hound work and is game for the long runs no matter the footing or what we have to go through. She is the little engine that can and still jigs, even on the hack back to the trailers after 4 hours of hunting I think she’s going to make it afterall.

The true test will be next weekend (Jan 24-25) when our hunt has been invited to hunt with Aiken Hounds. It’ll be my first away hunt, my first drag hunt, and her first hunt in structured flights. But with the progress she’s making I’m game to give it a try!

[Foxtrot_s]

Do you hunt regularly, weekly? The TB horse makes a great field hunter but you are never going to find its bottom. A season of regular hunting lets them figure out by themselves that it’s not worth getting all steamed up.

Bitting up IMHO does not work either - they just run through it, head down, chaaaarge.

What’s worked for all the TB’s I hunted is to reward and relax on the slightest sign of relaxing, and to work on dressagy movements when she wants to jig, etc. Hope that pretty soon it is easier to stay steady.

Some people seem to have the ability to just let a horse slip along, and they are the ones who ride very relaxed themselves, instead of nag nag nag.

[gumtree]

Good to hear progress is being made. IMO don’t be afraid to up the dosage, plenty hunt on 1 ½ cc.
I have found that these two bits too be very useful without being “too strong”, severe. The first is a Happy mouth jointed gag, 2 ring but I also like the 3 ring. The second is a Happy Mouth Mullen. Also a big fan of German Martingales.
Thanks for the follow up.

http://cdnll.doversaddlery.com/images/xl/0010425.jpg

http://www.bitofbritain.com/v/vspfiles/photos/3139-2.jpg

[SLW]

Nice update! Figuring out what works and what doesn’t can be a bit like working on a jig saw puzzle. Have a grand time in Aiken!!!

[CindyCRNA]

I find that the Smartcalm helped but even at a double dose of Smartcalm ultra, Ace was the only thing that did it. My big mare gets 5cc for turnout (she’s in rehab) and 1 1/2cc makes my TB gelding (who is a dirty spoker) “normal”. Had a good discussion about Ace with my vet this week. 2cc is a common dose for managing a ride but 5cc for turnout is still middle of the road dose. As an aside, both my mare and gelding went much better in a solid ported Kimberwick with a chain than they ever did i n a 3-ring elevator. Both of mine are very enthusiastic strong pullers.

[SouthernYankee]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7959966]
Do you hunt regularly, weekly? The TB horse makes a great field hunter but you are never going to find its bottom. A season of regular hunting lets them figure out by themselves that it’s not worth getting all steamed up.

Bitting up IMHO does not work either - they just run through it, head down, chaaaarge.

What’s worked for all the TB’s I hunted is to reward and relax on the slightest sign of relaxing, and to work on dressagy movements when she wants to jig, etc. Hope that pretty soon it is easier to stay steady.

Some people seem to have the ability to just let a horse slip along, and they are the ones who ride very relaxed themselves, instead of nag nag nag.[/QUOTE]

She’s actually a QH, I’m sure she’s got TB in there somewhere but she’s supposed to have a qh brain… and at 15.1 she keeps up easily with all of the bigger TB’s and crosses. We have been hunting weekly, and I’ve started trying to lightly hack her on Saturdays (we hunt on Sundays). Unfortunately riding during the week is out of the question now, I feed right at sunup and get home well after dark. Each time there is improvement, it’s just slow going. But I can see the wheels turning with the hound and horn work.

I like to think of myself as a quiet tactful rider, and work hard to only correct when needed. Then sit there and rude quietly. Riding cow horses the past 5 years has taught me not to be busy all the time, correct when needed then leave them alone.

[QUOTE=gumtree;7960270]Good to hear progress is being made. IMO don’t be afraid to up the dosage, plenty hunt on 1 ½ cc.
I have found that these two bits too be very useful without being “too strong”, severe. The first is a Happy mouth jointed gag, 2 ring but I also like the 3 ring. The second is a Happy Mouth Mullen. Also a big fan of German Martingales.
Thanks for the follow up. [/QUOTE]

I may up the ace a little this weekend and see if it lasts long enough… If for some reason the 3 ring quits working I’ll try the happy mouth 2 ring, although the 3 ring I have is almost as thick as a happy mouth it’s just missing the rubber, and I can move the leverage if I want. I did ride her in a loose ring happy mouth mullen all summer and just out trail riding we fought the whole time. She was very fussy with it and I finally switched to a loose ring French link for Dressage work, she seems much less tense and willing with that. Unfortunately it’s just not enough for hunting…

@CindyCRNA;7960520

I find that the Smartcalm helped but even at a double dose of Smartcalm ultra, Ace was the only thing that did it. My big mare gets 5cc for turnout (she’s in rehab) and 1 1/2cc makes my TB gelding (who is a dirty spoker) “normal”. Had a good discussion about Ace with my vet this week. 2cc is a common dose for managing a ride but 5cc for turnout is still middle of the road dose. As an aside, both my mare and gelding went much better in a solid ported Kimberwick with a chain than they ever did i n a 3-ring elevator. Both of mine are very enthusiastic strong pullers.

Thanks for the feedback about the SmartCalm, it gives me some hope that she will be a quieter solid citizen this summer when we switch to eventing mode.

I really don’t want to jinx myself but the 3 ring made a huge difference immediately even when she is non medicated. I’m sure it’s a lot of different things coming together all at once but the pulling was minimal and I was able to gallop one handed and still steer and rate her speed without any issue.

I really have enjoyed becoming a part of the hunting community, everyone has been welcoming and very helpful with any issues I may have.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=kt-rose;7852989]
I honestly think the opposite is true. A touch of Ace to steady your horse – and I mean less that 1cc – will settle them enough to pay attention to where they put their feet. Much safer!! The very judicious use of Ace as a training tool lets you make every effort to avoid the bad experiences a horse will not get past and ‘show’ them how you want them to behave in the hunt field.

A few back to back long days will also teach many horses to walk or stand quietly when they can and not use more steam than they have to at any given moment!

Have fun out there!![/QUOTE]
Sorry OP, hijacking your thread – seeing your success had me thinking.

Just a question for those of you who have chosen to use it… In the spring I am hoping to cap at a local hunt - it will be my gelding’s first time out, and my second. He is the quiet type normally, but I imagine his first time out he will get quite riled up (he is a competitive OTTB). When he is riled up he can be a handful and I want this to go as smoothly as possible for all parties.

If I choose to Ace him, when is the best time to do it? While he is loading in the trailer? Before we leave? Or, should I wait until we arrive and give him some orally when he is standing @ the trailer? He is sensible, but when he sees a trailer he definitely knows that the trailer means WORK! EXCITEMENT! NEW PLACES!! He doesn’t do anything bad or rowdy, but he does get that ‘wherearewegoingoOohH’ expression. I know ace doesn’t work (and is dangerous to give to them) once they are already excited… so should I be Ace-ing him before I pull out the trailer?

I am going to talk to my vet about it as well, as he would know the dosage. I was thinking something small – less than 1cc (preferably 1/2)

[gypsymare]

How long is your trailer ride? My TB settles in fast. I really just need the damper on his first 15 minutes of moving off excitement so I want to make sure it’s fully working before we arrive at the meet. My hunt is only 15-25 mins away so I dose him when I first start grooming.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7963175]
How long is your trailer ride? My TB settles in fast. I really just need the damper on his first 15 minutes of moving off excitement so I want to make sure it’s fully working before we arrive at the meet. My hunt is only 15-25 mins away so I dose him when I first start grooming.[/QUOTE]
Looking at the territories, almost all of them are under 30m away… most are 20-30.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7962756]
Sorry OP, hijacking your thread – seeing your success had me thinking.

Just a question for those of you who have chosen to use it… In the spring I am hoping to cap at a local hunt - it will be my gelding’s first time out, and my second. He is the quiet type normally, but I imagine his first time out he will get quite riled up (he is a competitive OTTB). When he is riled up he can be a handful and I want this to go as smoothly as possible for all parties.

If I choose to Ace him, when is the best time to do it? While he is loading in the trailer? Before we leave? Or, should I wait until we arrive and give him some orally when he is standing @ the trailer? He is sensible, but when he sees a trailer he definitely knows that the trailer means WORK! EXCITEMENT! NEW PLACES!! He doesn’t do anything bad or rowdy, but he does get that ‘wherearewegoingoOohH’ expression. I know ace doesn’t work (and is dangerous to give to them) once they are already excited… so should I be Ace-ing him before I pull out the trailer?

I am going to talk to my vet about it as well, as he would know the dosage. I was thinking something small – less than 1cc (preferably 1/2)[/QUOTE]

Unless a vet rides and even more importantly hunts I am not sure how much they have to offer. No disrespect intended. Practical experience trumps theoretical in my book. IME it takes 45 minutes± for the average TB when given IM. IME 1 to 1-1/2 ccs is pretty much the standard starting point for the average 1,200 ± TB. And that may have little to no desired effect. All of our meets are within 20 minutes so we time accordingly before we leave.

Most horses are going to get agitated upon arrival and or starting off. Especially if there is a large turnout. The “quirk” of Ace is that it has little to no effect on a horse that is already agitated. Giving in the mouth is tricky to get the dosage right. IME it takes around 3 ccs in the mouth to possibly achieve the effect of 1cc IM. But again each horse can be different. We hound walk our newbies which gives us a baseline on them. If one needs any at all.

If we are were capping at a meet in another area we will pull over and give on the trailer. I have never found 1/2cc on a full grown TB to be of any use. Again, every horse is different. You know your horse, give some at the farm and see how he feels/goes.

We just started using the pill form last year on some of our very unruly yearlings. The effects very but it does seem to last longer then IM. And more than an hour+ to take effect.

The above is not meant to be “advise” I do not know your horse. Just comments on my experience with our horses in our neck of the woods.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7963600]
Unless a vet rides and even more importantly hunts I am not sure how much they have to offer. No disrespect intended. Practical experience trumps theoretical in my book. IME it takes 45 minutes± for the average TB when given IM. IME 1 to 1-1/2 ccs is pretty much the standard starting point for the average 1,200 ± TB. And that may have little to no desired effect. All of our meets are within 20 minutes so we time accordingly before we leave.

Most horses are going to get agitated upon arrival and or starting off. Especially if there is a large turnout. The “quirk” of Ace is that it has little to no effect on a horse that is already agitated. Giving in the mouth is tricky to get the dosage right. IME it takes around 3 ccs in the mouth to possibly achieve the effect of 1cc IM. But again each horse can be different. We hound walk our newbies which gives us a baseline on them. If one needs any at all.

If we are were capping at a meet in another area we will pull over and give on the trailer. I have never found 1/2cc on a full grown TB to be of any use. Again, every horse is different. You know your horse, give some at the farm and see how he feels/goes.

We just started using the pill form last year on some of our very unruly yearlings. The effects very but it does seem to last longer then IM. And more than an hour+ to take effect.

The above is not meant to be “advise” I do not know your horse. Just comments on my experience with our horses in our neck of the woods.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input. I have never given Ace to this one, he is still fairly new to me. You’re right, maybe 1/2cc is too low. He’s big. My last TB was a true lightweight… he could look at the Ace vial and ‘fall asleep’ :lol:

The hounds I don’t believe will agitate him - we hack alone with my dogs, and have hacked with other people’s dogs - he is familiar with a million underfoot. The horn, maybe. We have some time before spring and I will be working on him going out on trails with other horses, but unfortunately, I am not sure if I have the means to replicate the amount of horses at a hunt :lol:

[SouthernYankee]

Beowulf, I give 1 - 1 1/2 cc IM as soon as I get to the meet, before I unload. But I get there about 45 minutes before we start to hunt. My mare is well traveled and doesn’t get agitated while everyone is getting organized, it seems to be working wonderfully.

I don’t know the dosage but a friend will give her mare an IV shot before she leaves the barn (30 minute drive) then will give another IV shot 30 minutes before mounting. I’ve ridden the mare and she doesn’t really need it for hunting but is a pig on the ground so I think the ace is more for dealing with her before getting on than anything else.

My latest dilemma is once the ace wears off my mare gets obnoxious again. Aced she’s a dream. But after a few good runs and 2 1/2 hours of hunting she’s back to fighting me again. Our hunt typically hunts for 4 hours so by the time the ace runs out she’s got another gear and I’m about worn out… someone suggested giving the IM shot and orally, that way the shot is there for the beginning but the oral will last longer. So has anyone ever used multiple dosing methods to prolong the effects? She doesn’t require much but just having a little makes her much more agreeable.

[SLW]

[QUOTE=SouthernYankee;7965139]
Beowulf, I give 1 - 1 1/2 cc IM as soon as I get to the meet, before I unload. But I get there about 45 minutes before we start to hunt. My mare is well traveled and doesn’t get agitated while everyone is getting organized, it seems to be working wonderfully.

I don’t know the dosage but a friend will give her mare an IV shot before she leaves the barn (30 minute drive) then will give another IV shot 30 minutes before mounting. I’ve ridden the mare and she doesn’t really need it for hunting but is a pig on the ground so I think the ace is more for dealing with her before getting on than anything else.

My latest dilemma is once the ace wears off my mare gets obnoxious again. Aced she’s a dream. But after a few good runs and 2 1/2 hours of hunting she’s back to fighting me again. Our hunt typically hunts for 4 hours so by the time the ace runs out she’s got another gear and I’m about worn out… someone suggested giving the IM shot and orally, that way the shot is there for the beginning but the oral will last longer. So has anyone ever used multiple dosing methods to prolong the effects? She doesn’t require much but just having a little makes her much more agreeable.[/QUOTE]

Seems like you are fighting the efficacy of ace which is short term. Carry a second dose in your sandwich case and give IM at a check at the 1.5 or 2 hour mark.

Hopefully with either a few more hunts or one good season under her belt your mare won’t need redosing.

[CindyCRNA]

[QUOTE=SLW;7965955]
Seems like you are fighting the efficacy of ace which is short term. Carry a second dose in your sandwich case and give IM at a check at the 1.5 or 2 hour mark.

Hopefully with either a few more hunts or one good season under her belt your mare won’t need redosing. :)[/QUOTE]

Here is my limited experience with it which has been all in the last 3 weeks. My 1400 pound moose is on stall rest and rehab riding which means walking. She gets 7cc orally 30-45 min before riding. We tried 5cc and while it made a huge difference as opposed to nothing, it took 7cc (70mg) to get a “vet approved” rehab ride every time. My very reactive TB gelding is starting jumping lessons at a new barn. We are experimenting but finding 2cc orally works great. He weighs closer to 1100 pounds. He is running and jumping on that dose no problem. But note I am giving it orally. I don’t know if I could get the same effect with 1/2 that IM but my understanding is that orally lasts twice as long as IV and 50% longer than IM. But I have not looked it up, that is just what someone said.

[Bogie]

@gumtree;7963600

Unless a vet rides and even more importantly hunts I am not sure how much they have to offer. No disrespect intended. Practical experience trumps theoretical in my book. IME it takes 45 minutes± for the average TB when given IM. IME 1 to 1-1/2 ccs is pretty much the standard starting point for the average 1,200 ± TB. And that may have little to no desired effect. All of our meets are within 20 minutes so we time accordingly before we leave.

I’ve worked with a vet who both rides and hunts. Their recommendation is 1-1.5cc IM. Some horses need less. I’ve never personally given more but I’ve heard of people who do. When my TB had a check ligament injury and I needed to keep him quieter in turnout I tried giving Ace orally (pills, liquid) and did not find it had that much effect. Personally, I’d rather give it IM.

I have not heard of anyone re-dosing. Usually Ace is used to take the edge off before the first cast and after a good run or two, the horse settles into his job. Since Ace doesn’t work if a horse is already agitated then I’m not sure that redosing would work at all.

My advice is to bow out at a check and hack home early, or join a slower field if your horse becomes unruly that far into the hunt. It may be a sign that your horse is becoming fatigued. When I first started jumping my TB in the hunt field he’d be grand for the first hour or so and then start getting very anxious and agitated when faced with a fence. I just backed off him and took him to a non-jumping field. My trainer told me he was getting tired and worried . . . eventually he was able to jump for longer periods.

[devvie]

Interesting thread. Personally, I’m quite content with my “pony club” mentality, and have never felt the need to use Ace or any other calmer. Yes, I’ve hunted. There are a lot of great horsepeople out there (I don’t count myself among that group) who consider it a shortcut. But hey, it’s a free world.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=devvie;7967500]
Interesting thread. Personally, I’m quite content with my “pony club” mentality, and have never felt the need to use Ace or any other calmer. Yes, I’ve hunted. There are a lot of great horsepeople out there (I don’t count myself among that group) who consider it a shortcut. But hey, it’s a free world.[/QUOTE]
Being a PC grad with a PC mentality myself, I am guessing you’ve never sat on a horse that completely lost it during a hunt. I do not want to repeat that experience, especially not with a green and very athletic TB. YMMV.

I have NEVER felt the need to medicate for anything. But the number one motto of PC is SAFETY first… I’d rather be safe than sorry.

[Bogie]

It all depends on your horse and your experiences.

It’s not unusual to give a horse a bit of ace when starting to hunt to get them through the first cast with all brain cells intact. Over time, the idea is to wean them off. I’ve had horses that were great in the hunt field from the get go and I’ve had a horse that needed a little help to get through the first cast a few times.

Surprisingly, the vets I’ve spoken to about Ace have been remarkably unconcerned and were happy to suggest dose/timing for people who ask about it.

Honestly, you are much better off speaking to your vet about it than getting advice from a forum.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=SLW;7965955]
Seems like you are fighting the efficacy of ace which is short term. Carry a second dose in your sandwich case and give IM at a check at the 1.5 or 2 hour mark.

Hopefully with either a few more hunts or one good season under her belt your mare won’t need redosing. :)[/QUOTE]

Exactly. That’s what a well-respected Vet that hunts with us does.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Bogie;7966665]
I’ve worked with a vet who both rides and hunts. Their recommendation is 1-1.5cc IM. Some horses need less. I’ve never personally given more but I’ve heard of people who do. When my TB had a check ligament injury and I needed to keep him quieter in turnout I tried giving Ace orally (pills, liquid) and did not find it had that much effect. Personally, I’d rather give it IM.

I have not heard of anyone re-dosing. Usually Ace is used to take the edge off before the first cast and after a good run or two, the horse settles into his job. Since Ace doesn’t work if a horse is already agitated then I’m not sure that redosing would work at all.

My advice is to bow out at a check and hack home early, or join a slower field if your horse becomes unruly that far into the hunt. It may be a sign that your horse is becoming fatigued. When I first started jumping my TB in the hunt field he’d be grand for the first hour or so and then start getting very anxious and agitated when faced with a fence. I just backed off him and took him to a non-jumping field. My trainer told me he was getting tired and worried . . . eventually he was able to jump for longer periods.[/QUOTE]

IME I have found this with horses that are not fit enough or are not comfortable with “whole experience” of hunting. Ours are galloped 5 days a week leading up to hunt season. They are up to 3 miles several days a week by the time fall comes around. Newbies are jumped over all kinds of stuff (not ring jumps) until they are comfortable with just about anything. Our hunt is pretty stout. We don’t have a non-jumping field per-say. I have found horses will jump what is asked early on but it becomes clear they are being “over faced” as time goes on and or just not comfortable with “everything” that is going on in the hunt field. It’s not because they are not fit. Nervousness/anxiety “burns” far more energy than a long run. With horses and people