Need your opinion-Jumpng position, half seat and go for it or stay back to the base?

[ebott2015]

A little background here-I have an extremely careful horse to the point that he can be a chicken to new things, which resulted me riding in a more defensive manner at all times. So I was looking for free saddle time aka exercising other people’s horse and found this older lady who foxhunts and does hunter shows occasionally. I rode her Irish cob and on the first try she stopped at a 2’6 oxer, and according to her she’s never stopped at a fence her whole life and the solution is to “get in a half seat before the fence and just keep track of your line and just ride as if she’s not going to stop”.

Ok, so here I got extremely confused. I’ve never heard anyone who rides horses that tend to stop to get into the half seat and just pretends the horse will jump, and the questions is, isn’t that a formula for disaster? Well you got a horse that might stop and with the 2 point position IF the horse stops you’re probably going to fly over the horse’s shoulder. Also I did give the mare a tap after she stopped and the owner said don’t punish her for it, and I was very confused as far as the rationale behind it. When I was at a Boyd Martin clinic on the XC, my horse stopped once at a fence and his solution was that every time a stop happens you need to make a point that it’s not acceptable, and therefore, tap them on the shoulder immediately.

Anyways, I’m having a lot of trouble understanding her style, is it more of a hunter thing?? I have never seen any eventer that rides a spooky horse just “get into half seat and ride like he’s going to go over the jump”?? Hoping to find an answer here on the forum with everyone’s intelligence!

[FitToBeTied]

I think it is a horse thing. One horse I had did not like you sitting to the fence, so a half seat it was. The current horse is one where you sit to the base.

[Highflyer]

Sitting gives you more security and allows you to use your seat to adjust the horse-- but it works differently on some horses than others, and it does depend on the horse and its preferences as well as the type of fence. A horse that is used to being ridden in a half seat might very well interpret a rider sitting to the base of the fence as “something is wrong and I am being asked not to jump,” so that’s a bit different than a horse that stops because it’s spooky or nappy.

[ebott2015]

@Highflyer

Sitting gives you more security and allows you to use your seat to adjust the horse-- but it works differently on some horses than others, and it does depend on the horse and its preferences as well as the type of fence. A horse that is used to being ridden in a half seat might very well interpret a rider sitting to the base of the fence as “something is wrong and I am being asked not to jump,” so that’s a bit different than a horse that stops because it’s spooky or nappy.

That makes a lot of sense! I think she was trained to be ridden in a half seat all the time and when I actually sat in the saddle she seemed confused about it in front of the jump

[yellowbritches]

Of course, this is also can boil down to semantics. What I’m envisioning is a rider staying in a light seat and just not moving (not up in a proper two point, but more of a three point), basically letting the horse fold you (which, really is how it should be under perfect circumstances). I’ve known lots of horses like that who absolutely can not tolerate the rider moving in front of the jump. Hell. The first “real” event horse I competed putting on the ground more times than I can remember because I had a bad habit of leaning, and he HATED that. I also know a lot of sensitive horses that don’t like riders to sit and drive the last couple of steps (again, not something that you should make a habit of), and while they may not stop (some obnoxious ones will), they may flatten and/or rush if you sit the last few strides instead of staying quiet and light. All that being said, I’ve seen old schoolies that really would only jump if the rider got in two point once they got straight, grabbed mane, and pony clubbed kicked. A lot of fox hunters, too.

As for the best way to react to a stop, well, it depends. A cheeky stopper who was otherwise presented to the fence correctly? Sure, a swat behind the leg (not on the shoulder!) is appropriate. But most good hearted horses don’t stop just because. My horse would unload my butt out of righteous indignation if I swatted him after a stop because he only stops if I do something dumb. Totally unfair of me to get on his case for my mistake. I also wouldn’t necessarily swat a greenie who was confused or scared, but figure out why they didn’t understand their job, and address it. I might swat after a spooky stop on a horse with some mileage, though.

As with all things horses, the answer always is, “it depends.”

[findeight]

Semantics. Half seat is not two point/jumping position. It’s the range of what’s in between full seat and two point/jumping position and more to do with hip angle controlling the weight in the seat, not heaving up on the irons and throwing the shoulders-which isn’t even correct (or secure) jumping position/two point.

Closing hip angle even an inch will unweight the seat and retain stability. This is where equitation proves it’s worth with form to function…and where so many newer trainers are weak teachingwise at best, ignorant at worst turning out riders who switch between grinding full seat and throw the shoulders out over the neck jumping position.

Should be some great resources out there, some research and self evaluation might help.

Many horses are deemed chicken when all they need is clear communication from a rider with a strong and secure position that allows proper use of the aids approaching a fence or obstacle. Flat, uphill. Downhill. Off a cliff…they look to the rider for guidence…even in two point over the fence. If you feel out of control in your jumping position, see above paragraphs.

[Janet]

Addressing this part

Well you got a horse that might stop and with the 2 point position IF the horse stops you’re probably going to fly over the horse’s shoulder.

Practice riding in two point with your heels down and your feet slightly forward. In order to stay balanced, you will probably need to lower your shoulders slightly (while keeping your hips back), so it will LOOK like a “more forward” two point. But because your feet are well in front of your hips, you are in a defensive position if the horse DOES stop.

[Corky]

I did a clinic with Blyth Tait. He did not allow anyone to sit deep. His theory was that if you sit on your butt you take your legs off and therefor balance and consistent leg contact is impeded. He had everyone ride every horse in a light seat because you always have leg on in a light seat (if your doing it right anyway). Most horses seemed fine with the ride, some improving significantly over the two days from the change in approach.
The point was to always be in independent balance as a rider, and always be present with your leg so you can increase pressure in a fraction of a second.

[CindyCRNA]

I took lessons from a jumper trainer and we ran around in 2 point. Now I take lessons with an eventing trainer and we sit back in tighter corners and at least 3 strides before the jump. My TB likes me sitting better . I’m sure it’s because I’m not the most balanced rider and sitting helps.

[IrishDeclan]

If the horse is predominantly a foxhunter then I could see it being confused by the rider sitting down and changing the balance before a fence. Right or wrong, every foxhunter I’ve ever sat on has been pretty happy to gallop and jump on autopilot. Perhaps the horse is used to the rider staying off it’s back coming down to fences.

I personally like to nitpick and hunt distances too much so I’d probably make an absolutely horrendous foxhunter. :winkgrin:

[BigMick]

@FitToBeTied

I think it is a horse thing. One horse I had did not like you sitting to the fence, so a half seat it was. The current horse is one where you sit to the base.

This is my exact situation. My last horse (TB) was highly offended if you sat deep to the fence and touched him whatsoever. Super horse that I evented at Training and foxhunted later.

Current horse (draft cross) is the opposite. I can’t “hold” him enough with my seat, leg, and hand. (Not all confusing for me one bit…)

He’s just a completely different horse. Also a horse that I event and foxhunt. It’s not a discipline thing, just a horse thing.

[Jealoushe]

One of the reason many jumper coaches use half seat is for added stability. If you are out of the saddle, toes up, chin up, chest open and your reins are short enough and hands together at the neck, it doesn’t matter what the horse does, you have a secure position. A stop, run out, etc will not throw you off. It is actually much more solid than sitting. So a horse that you are worried about stopping, you will be more effective on if you are out of the saddle in a half seat. That being said, your position needs to be solid. In this position you also allow the horse to jump up to you.

[merrygoround]

@findeight

Semantics. Half seat is not two point/jumping position. It’s the range of what’s in between full seat and two point/jumping position and more to do with hip angle controlling the weight in the seat, not heaving up on the irons and throwing the shoulders-which isn’t even correct (or secure) jumping position/two point.

Closing hip angle even an inch will unweight the seat and retain stability. This is where equitation proves it’s worth with form to function…and where so many newer trainers are weak teachingwise at best, ignorant at worst turning out riders who switch between grinding full seat and throw the shoulders out over the neck jumping position.

Should be some great resources out there, some research and self evaluation might help.

Many horses are deemed chicken when all they need is clear communication from a rider with a strong and secure position that allows proper use of the aids approaching a fence or obstacle. Flat, uphill. Downhill. Off a cliff…they look to the rider for guidence…even in two point over the fence. If you feel out of control in your jumping position, see above paragraphs.

The critical words. Strong and secure seat. It takes saddle time, and a lot of trotting and galloping up and down hills for the rider to be able to hold that off the saddle but not up in the air seat.

Watching riders in two point doing crest release over fences makes my eye hurt.