regarding waiver of minor rights it varies by state, you should consult your insurance carrier and legal rep…also the State could intervene in behave of the minor (long shot but could)
also some states take into consideration modified comparative negligence doctrine,
modified comparative negligence doctrine, which not only reduces a plaintiff’s recovery by the percentage attributed to their relative fault, but also bars a plaintiff’s recovery if the plaintiff was 50% or 51% at fault; the 50% or 51% threshold varies by state.
in the first mention child injury if the state where it occurred does adhere to modified comparative negligence doctrine the parents would most likely bear the greater responsibly
Is this NY? If so, I live in this area too. You can PM me about the barn if you have questions. I might have an opinion.
That said, even if I think the seller is sketchy, it doesn’t release the parents of their obligation to be responsible for their own child. (Especially on their own property). Ignorance about horses is one thing when your child is in an appropriate lesson program on their commercial property (and they would still make you sign a waiver). It’s not really an option when you have horses on your own property, in my opinion. Especially if the parents were present. It’s almost impossible to imagine a scenario where the seller would be responsible in this situation.
Actually I am just trying to suss out what is what. Yes I have asked a lot of questions surrounding whether seller might have any fault or if negligence could be proven.
But as has been made painfully clear, the buyer made a lot of choices in the matter, as well.
I actually don’t know the family at all so I have zero clue what their take on all of it is…the girl appears to be healing up well which is great and the biggest concern.
Also, if the spooking was caused by thunder…the horse could have spooked at any loud noise (like a truck going by). And sometimes the most potentially dangerous storms aren’t the scariest-sounding. The youth of the horse itself isn’t negligence, because, as many have noted, quite a few kids ride young horses.
In this situation it seems like the parent/rider had most of the decision making in their hands.
I do fear that the seller may have pressured them to continue with the trial despite weather, gained their trust as they are also the girls head trainer, then led them a bit astray in terms of a good fit of a horse or girl/family being ready for horse ownership, told them there would be no problem, etc. Been “pushy” etc. So many concerns about the overall scenario. HOWEVER that in itself does not make for “negligence” just not the type of person I myself would like to deal with…
And noone was under “duress” to do the trial ride so the parent it seems has as much responsibility if not more in what occurred.
GREAT NEWS ALSO! The little girl is now home and doing remarkably well!!!
@darcilyna, I admit to having been initially mystified by your repeated posts but now that I’ve been reminded that, based on your previous posts here, you are new to horses with a daughter who wants to ride, I think maybe I understand more.
As a parent, it is comforting to believe that accidents and injuries can be avoided if you stay away from “shady” people, and if something bad happens, it’s because someone was negligent - and as long as no one is negligent, you’re safe. Unfortunately, with horses, this isn’t true.
The best way to minimize risks is to ride with reputable trainers in a high quality program with well-trained horses. But minimize isn’t the same as eliminate. With riding, the ever-present wild card is the horse. The very best horse in the world is going to have “a moment” now and then. The most sensible person in the world is going to have the occasional lapse in judgment or careless moment.
People that spend a lot of time working with horses are going to get hurt and there isn’t much you can do to prevent it. If do everything “right,” most of those “hurts” are going to be non-emergency-room events, but they’re still going to happen.
Yes! Thank you for looking past my somewhat obnoxious repetitive questions to the heart of my concern.
What you explain is what I am learning and seeing, as well.
Further thread to our story is that my daughter was injured riding a few years ago And whole it wasn’t horrible she only had a buckle fracture in her arm, it was still a wake up call for our family to learn a lot more about how all this works, learn as much as we could and look for the safest place we could find for her to ride.
Not necessarily changing her perspective of the horse industry as a whole.
DD herself had a fall off a horse resulting in injury a few years back. If curious you can see under my posts I have only started about 3 threads here and that was my first! Happened to be at the same barn/head trainer as this sales trial gone wrong. So we have some skewed perspective of the barn/seller stemming from a history.
But to answer your question: her passion remains horses! Even after her injury she got back up as soon as she was cleared from the doctor to ride and even when cast we were visiting horse barns, etc. She is not scared by these stories if anything I feel like each one she hears educates her and she learns something.
Yes we know injuries happen! Even on the best of horses with the best of riders. Horses are big animals and can be unpredictable. All the more reason to choose to ride, lesson (and buy if you choose) at a barn with the safest program you can find, solid lesson horses, with trainers with whom you feel safe.
even then incidents can occur … horse trusts rider, rider trusts horse even then unforeseen (at the time) events can add up to a problem
Youngest daughter who I mentioned up thread was schooling her horse on a jump course set up here at home, older daughter noticed she had not returned from circling around the barn. Horse had slipped down responding to daughter’s command to turn. horse fell pinning her right foot which became hung in the stirrup, horse was trained to ground tie so once she got up the reins were released and stood in place… daughter’s foot was twisted in the stirrup (broke most all major bones in her right foot).
Which leads to another long story about survival, recovery and perseverance
What caused this was horse had steel flat plat shoes on and we were in a drought condition, the ground was very dry …the attempt to execute a sharp turn to the right to get back on course cause horse to just slide down
(A good friend’s daughter died from a similar fall while was watching where the horse upon getting up ran)
I believe my daughter’s pediatric surgeon who rebuilt her foot was sort of edging her on as he told her she would never walk correctly again …and could forget about returning to the balance beam were she was at the time a rated high school competitor
So in her mind set she was out to prove them wrong… she had a great physical therapist… and was back on the balance beam within six months… then start distance running doing marathons…which she sent the results to her surgeon after each race
Everyone who rides seriously (i.e., not the once a year vacation trail ride) will fall off and will get injured.
That said, there are trainers who are more risk-averse/safety-conscious, and those who are less so. I’m not a fan of trainers who go too far toward the “Face your fears, show bravery, ride through it” philosophy, especially for young children who are learning to ride. I prefer a more risk-averse trainer who will, for example, lunge or hop on a potentially peppy pony before child gets on… end a lesson early if the weather turns wild, etc.
But one could argue it doesn’t help a kid’s riding in the long run if you communicate worry and excessive caution all the time… they will lose confidence, which will make their riding worse.
It’s a tough balance, and one I’m sure riding instructors struggle with.
Ok, if this is a now a broader how to minimize risks thread, I’ve got several tips.
Learn and internalize really good safety routines. Pony Club is good for this. Some of the directives seem a bit repetitive but they are directed at controlling everything you can. So you make sure your saddle girth is tight before you mount. You check your tack for cracks before every ride. You clean and check horse. You know how to lead, tie, work around horses. This in itself can help avoid so many accidents from taking short cuts. Have a solid safety check routine and best practices.
Stay mindful of your horse at all times. Don’t wear ear buds, text or start chattering away to other people around your horse. Don’t ride if you are too ill, stressed or tired to focus. Or if you ride do a low key hack.
Know your horse. Observe daily. Know his triggers, spooks bad behavior and think ahead. Connected to this choose a horse appropriate to your riding level and goals.
Do not get caught up in ego or in rushing or urgency. Give yourself enough time.
Finally other people and other horses. For me, at this stage, they are honestly the biggest risk factor. That can include instructors that push you into poorly designed exercises that you aren’t ready for. But it can also include times where your own ego or sense of embarrassment makes you push yourself past what you know is sensible. It also includes other riders. Once a week I do an at home trail ride with a friend and we’ve noticed our horses get much spicier together than either does solo. We’ve had to modify our rides to keep each other safe. Also sometimes loose horses ring or trails, toss rider or bolt from handler and cause chaos. Be aware of other people. The standard line is its safer to ride with a group or buddy. Not always. Pick your riding buddies carefully.
Anyhow, even as a non riding mom, you can help your daughter develop these skills. Ask her about her safety checks. Ask her what she does if she feels unsafe. What she does if others are being unsafe. Etc.
BTW these are all excellent life skills that help minimize conflict at work and school, traffic accidents, kitchen fires, everythung. Have a safety check list, stay focused, know your equipment, don’t get distracted and don’t let other people push you to do dumb things.
LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS! Thank you it’s a lot to look at and talk over with DD.
Sadly the closest Pony Clubs (30 min away) both only do the quiz part of Pony Club for some reason. I believe there are more fully active ones about an hour away, though. She is going into her 3rd IEA season which teaches good things but it does not seem as thorough as Pony Club.
One core principal that every parent and trainer should have is that if someone is genuinely afraid/reluctant to do something, don’t try to push them into it. It is not the right time.
Don’t know if that was the situation with this girl and the horse and the storm. But it’s a delicate situation … and whatever the girl’s feelings were at the time, it would be understandable if she is no longer so trusting of adults or her own skill.
I’ve known of two incidents where a minor rider never rode again after an unexpected horse behavior led to a painful fall. Both were good riders. But were caught totally off-guard by a horse unexpectedly bolting and bucking.
In some respects it’s too bad they didn’t ride again. One especially had an intuitive balance, position and feel for riding a well-behaved horse. But in other respects they went on to other sports and did well with those with equal satisfaction to riding.
There is a mantra that a trainer’s job is to push people out of their comfort zone so that in the end they their confidence and skills. But there is a limit. Crossing certain boundaries can end up doing more harm than good.
Truest thing ever said.
This should be framed and screwed to the barn wall of every lesson barn with minor riders. Or any riders, really.
And that is true of every active sport.
Even playing the piano can lead to repetitive motion injuries and probably a lot more I don’t know about as I don’t play.
There is no perfect safety in life. Maybe that’s one of the important lessons that parents help children learn to navigate – evaluating situations, framing good judgment.
‘All the time’ might be the key. Is the parent doing this habitually? Or are they truly reacting to a specific situation?
This is so completely true. From the pushy trainer to the inadequate trainer who doesn’t know what they should be teaching … to ignorant civilians who march right up to a rider on a horse that is half-spooking and scooting to invade that space and reach up to hand something to the rider “here I thought you might want this lip balm”.
Learn to recognize when certain people lack common sense around horses. Or maybe just lack a good background in horse behavior, which does take time to acquire. Horse people or not-horse people. Do your best to protect yourself, your horse and them from their poor judgments with horses. Especially if you show or get out with your horse into more public spaces, they will always be there. [Double-especially if a young person invites a non-horsey boyfriend or girlfriend to the barn or a show.]
I know a trail rider who jokes “my horse is race-brained”.
After one ride with her, in a group with other riders, it was clear to me that the horse was not the one who was “race-brained”. It was her. She was oblivious to everything she was doing that made this so.
No matter who it is. A friend or a BNT – even a parent. It is always ok to say “no”, even if you are getting pushback from someone else. Even if they are shouting insults at you for saying “no”.
Growing a strong sense of self is important to safe riding and safe choices. At times it will be necessary to stand up to others. And know that you are an ok person no matter what they say to you because they choose to be disappointed in your decision to stay safe.
OP, Think you are learning much on here between this and your other posts, especially the one about the nice trainer who cant teach diagonals.
Far as negligence, the risk of riding in any situation is ultimately up to the rider/parent. Hopefully they have and understand all pertinent info about things they can control before making the decision. If they are misinformed or lied to, that crosses the line. So, the more you know before DD gets on any horse, the safer DD will be. Always remember if it does not look or seem right to you? Its not and could be dangerous.
And, yes, its probably stupid to put the average 8 year old on any age horse they’ve never ridden or even been around for a test ride in any weather. BUT its not my horse or property and I wasn’t there so….who knows if this could have been avoided or not. With horses, there are always surprises and things nobody can control and/or be held responsible for.
