Neurological Issue? Need Help. Gelding with strange behavior that no one has seen

[beowulf]

I’m coming in late with some observations. There is a difference in body condition from day 1 (sale video) to now (pasture video). He looks like a different horse, but in both videos he is unsound. What was the other place’s management like, can you replicate it? This is a relatively inexpensive first step.

There may not be just one thing causing all this; it may be compounded by multiple problems at once. Sometimes there’s not just one answer, but all issues are exacerbated because they’re triggered by one thing being set off.

Has anyone ever looked at this horse’s feet critically? Have his feet been done since you bought him?

I don’t know how four vets could think that this horse is sound off of the videos you provided with your trainer riding. He wasn’t sound in his sale video - he is bilaterally lame up front and behind. The abnormal tail carriage and the uneven strides behind were there from day 1 of the sales video. My first impression of this horse was he moves like a classic chronic navicular case and his feet are bothering him on top of whatever neurologic component is there. Horses clinically diagnosed with navicular changes share some overlapping symptoms with what’s evident in the sale video: stiff tail, weak pelvis, toe shuffling, bilateral lameness, etc.

None of that would explain the weirdness you’re encountering when you get on him, which is a separate, far more serious issue entirely. EDM, neurological bladder, tumor in or near the spine are definitely possible. These are more serious and depending on diagnosis and finances, either untreatable or come with weighing QOL as well as safety of all that handle them. Certainly no one would fault you for any decision you make at this point in your journey. You are in an unenviable position with very little answers after thousands of dollars in diagnostics. It’s a crappy place to be in.

Good luck and hoping for the best possible outcome for Jasper.

[IPEsq]

I know you’ll do what’s best for him. Respectfully, he may have several things going on, and some things may be able to be improved. And the bad days may come and go. But if the experts are right about there being a serious spinal and nerve problem, then that is the high risk part, and there is nothing wrong with letting him go before the bad days become catastrophic and not pouring money into more treatable areas. If this were just a case of navicular horse, you won’t have top vets scratching their heads about the behavior.

[TXKing99]

Thanks for jumping in. To answer your question about his feet, I have owned him for about 15 months and he gets his feet done every 5-6 weeks. I have been told by 3 different farriers that he has good feet. I haven’t had his feet “critically” examined. Could there be navicular, possibly.

Definitely agree, this is a crappy position to be in. Difficult as it may be, I remind myself that decisions like this are part of responsible ownership. Hoping my next horse will be a better experience. That said, without Jasper I wouldn’t have learned as much as I have nor would I have met some of the incredible people I have met. It hasn’t been all bad.

[banmharcach]

Sorry to hear you have not located a definable fixable problem.

Nasty as it sounds, if you are anywhere near vet school facilities then try to get a necropsy done when his day comes as it would hopefully provide peace of mind as to what might have been going on and being untreatable or worst case—-everyone learns something new re symptoms of a solvable situation but too late for Jasper.

Enjoy your time with him though—-he isn’t going to worry about not being a riding horse.

[beowulf]

@IPEsq

If this were just a case of navicular horse, you won’t have top vets scratching their heads about the behavior.

I hope my post did not come across as explaining away the behavior as “just navicular”. I did point out I believed the footsoreness unrelated. To an outside observer who only has videos to go off, he struck me as footsore on top of whatever is causing his behavioral issues. It may well not be navicular, my point was that he’s visibly footsore in every video, even the ones predating his abnormal behavior. He appears a Russian Nesting Doll of bodily complaints.

I doubt the specialty vets OP has consulted via email are incorrect in their assessments, but it sounds like none have clinically examined him so far. (Did I misread this? Please correct me if I am wrong.) If I’m understanding correctly, OP has contacted specialists for outside consult and had conversations with them. That should not be confused with specialists actually examining the horse and scratching their head about the behavior - they haven’t formally seen the horse yet.

I think most horsemen have been in the unpleasant situation of addressing multiple things at once: IE, soft tissue injuries as a result of poor hoof angles, or other soft tissues being aggravated by an existing injury, etc. Sometimes in the process of treating one thing, we even discover something else. Sometimes the further you go the more knots there are to unravel, especially with a horse who has been in chronic pain for some time. Sometimes its Zebras, and sometimes its Occam’s Razor. In a restricted-budget sense it might be easier to start with simple over chasing zebras.

[Horsecrazy3]

You have been a caring owner who has gone beyond what many horse owners would have pursued to try to discover the cause of your horse’s unusual symptoms. You have done an excellent job in advocating for your horse. I had to euthanize my 8 yr old GRP mare last year as she suddenly started to have seizures. At first they were very minor with her standing and in a matter of weeks went to falling down. Immediate testing and imagine resulted in an inconclusive diagnosis. On my vet’s recommendation and my gut feeling, I made the heart wrenching decision to euthanize as I could not guarantee the safety of her, myself, my SO, her farrier, her vet, her massage therapist, etc even with her being treated with drugs. My point is that you have a neurological diagnosis that will eventually lead to your horse falling and you will not know when, where or with who. A day too early is better than a day to late to provide the best quality of life for your cherished horse.

[IPEsq]

I don’t think the OP has shipped the horse to any of the experts, and hauling the horse a long distance doesn’t seem to be a good idea.

I do think there could be multiple things going on with this horse, but the nerve type symptoms should be taken seriously. Having witnessed a horse lose all control of his hind end, which wound up with the involvement of several vets and the fire department to try to get him up (which was unsuccessful), I would not wish that experience on the OP.

[skydy]

I think you have made the best decision for your horse in letting him go before he loses control of his hindquarters. {{{{{Hugs}}}}}

[starsandsun]

Damn it. I’m so sorry.

You’re doing right by him.

[Warmblood1]

I think you should go back through and reread the thread. I think you are missing a lot of information.

[Warmblood1]

I’m so sorry you have to make this difficult decision but I’m also so happy this horse landed in your hands. He needed you. I hope you continue to pursue horses, you deserve to own them and I swear they aren’t all so difficult to access, keep and own. Know that we fully support you.

[beowulf]

I read every reply of OPs. It was one of the reasons I came so late to this thread, as there was a lot to unpack. Maybe you could clue me in to where OP brought this horse to the specialists recommended on this board.

[NaturallyHappy]

I didn’t see that OP was able to get to a specialist of any type, either. I think location and ability to haul may be a problem.

[TXKing99]

My initial thought was to trailer him 3.5 hours to Texas A&M. I consulted via phone with a doctor at A&M who highly recommended an internist at ESMS in a town about 40 minutes away from me. Logistically it was the better place to go. Jasper doesn’t trailer well and was a basket case by the time we got to ESMS. So he has physically been seen by an internist who did the 2nd neuro exam on him, scoped his bladder, flushed it, did bloodwork and urinalysis. He was looking for neurological bladder and saw no evidence of it. This was in February, prior to the onset of the ejaculatory reflex response. He has seen 3 other generalists. The other doctors who were kind enough to read his history and watch multiple videos and respond to me were definitely puzzled with the behavior and offered general possibilities, but were limited to how much they could help since he wasn’t a patient.
I agree with you that there is more going on here than just whatever is causing the weird ejaculatory response. I have tried to address by going with the least invasive, most obvious things. I wish one of the doctors he did see would have mentioned something about his feet, I would have looked into that more.

[Warmblood1]

Navicular does not cause spontaneous ejaculation or a plethora of the other ongoing issues. I agree with others who have stated that navicular doesn’t cause vets and multiple specialists to scratch there heads like this. It also does not match the time line with this horse. What your vet has suggested as far as a tumor or lesion on the spine makes much more sense to me and I must say I am much more inclined to trust their qualifications.

[Paint_Party]

@TXKing99

Difficult as it may be, I remind myself that decisions like this are part of responsible ownership. Hoping my next horse will be a better experience. That said, without Jasper I wouldn’t have learned as much as I have nor would I have met some of the incredible people I have met. It hasn’t been all bad.

There is a horse out there, right now, looking for a person just like you to be its next human and forever home.

[beowulf]

@Warmblood1

Navicular does not cause spontaneous ejaculation or a plethora of the other ongoing issues. I agree with others who have stated that navicular doesn’t cause vets and multiple specialists to scratch there heads like this. It also does not match the time line with this horse. What your vet has suggested as far as a tumor or lesion on the spine makes much more sense to me and I must say I am much more inclined to trust their qualifications.

I’m going to quote you and say you need to go back and reread my first reply. You seem to be missing a fair amount of my post.

I was very clear that my impression was these were two separate issues.

My prevailing point in that reply was that this horse clearly has multiple things going on, and one predated the other. Even if OP successfully addressed the neurological component, she’d still be holding the lead rope of a horse that wasn’t sound and needed more diagnostics. In her position of limited finances, I’m not sure if that avenue is feasible to her. So the question of whether euthanasia is on the table becomes very pragmatic.

Reading between the lines of OPs post, they are looking for some answers besides bringing to a specialist or involving more spent money.

One thing is clear: whoever vetted this horse for OP during the initial PPE failed OP, assuming a standard PPE. OP provided a sale video of the horse before they purchased it. I would advise you watch that video and ask yourself if that horse is sound.

Here are the videos if you need to rewatch it:

General Tex

General Tex “Ricochet” - 2012 AQHA Gelding

If this horse looks sound to you, you owe it every horse in your life to do some deep, personal examination and ask some hard questions about whether you’re able to detect lameness or neurologic issues in a horse.

[IPEsq]

I don’t see any front end lameness in the sales videos. I do see a horse with a tall and somewhat straight hind leg who is being ridden very upside down to compensate for his lack of natural ability to engage behind. But I see a horse who is capable of having a soft, swinging tail, who is relaxed when the rider gets on, and who can control his penis.

The OP’s primary problem is the inability to get to the bottom of the neuro stuff. He can’t travel. And if he could, is this something that could be diagnosed short of necropsy?

As a group, we advise posters not to let anyone make them feel guilty for these hard decisions. The people who are there know the horse the best. If there is a real risk of catastrophic event, then the horse should not be ridden, and it’s up to the owner when they are comfortable making the call. But if the decision is to do it soon, that’s always better than when the horse goes down and can’t get up. Or he gets a bladder infection. Or he can’t urinate. Or even if he can’t reasonably get away from his buddy when he’s had enough of bitey-face. Piling on about the reasons the OP should not have bought the horse in the first place is not at all helpful. The horse is lucky to have had this owner to be his advocate as much as it’s hurt her wallet.

[SusanO]

My thought is that there was something wrong with the horse in the sales video. Not necessarily feet or navicular. The agitation, tail wringing and stiffness suggested pain somewhere but on the other hand the rider was pretty rough so that might have caused some of the reactions. But not all of them. There were subtle signs all was not well. What? I don’t know.

And despite the good care the OP has given the animal it is getting worse. At this point better foot care isn’t going to fix this horse unfortunately. I don’t know what the problem is but even in the video of the horse playing with his friend the horse seems stiff and reluctant to move and only does so when the other horse makes him move. Feet could be contributing to this but I think there is more going on.

[beowulf]

The front end lameness is bilateral but most obvious with the cowboy rider. Watch the small circles and in the grassy ring video, the horse doing “turn on the haunches”. The tail is held stiff and the horse was not relaxed while the rider got on. In the cowboy video watch the serpentines and the changes of direction at trot.

I missed where I piled on OP; I was supportive of euthanasia from the first post, but OP was understandably looking for other options. I like your posts, IPEsq – but I feel like you frequently take one tiny part of my responses and twist it into something it isn’t. You did it with my first reply insinuating I was saying “just navicular would cause all these neurologic issues”, and you’re doing it now. Below is my first response, making it clear my post was nothing but supportive of OP’s situation:

Certainly no one would fault you for any decision you make at this point in your journey. You are in an unenviable position with very little answers after thousands of dollars in diagnostics. It’s a crappy place to be in.

OP doesn’t have unlimited finances, the horse has multiple issues. I’m not blaming OP for anything; I’ve been in their position before with limited finances and a neurological horse. The reason I pointed out the lameness is because if anything would help OP make this decision, it might be knowing even if they got to the bottom of the neurological issues, there is no guarantee he would he sound or happy in his body. Euthanasia becomes a matter of pragmatism at that point. Alternatively, if OP doesn’t want to euthanize but doesn’t/can’t investigate the neurologic issue further, they have a starting point.

OP can take what works for her and leave the rest, as they have done.