This is a good idea. Your horse has an unusual presentation. Contact Rood and Riddle. Hopefully you can send them the video. Explain that he is now showing this behavior when not under saddle, as well as the testing your vets have done.
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Thanks so much for your response. I will look into reaching out to one or both of these and see if they have any suggestions. I did reach back out to the veterinary hospital at Texas A&M with an update and shared the link to the video. Waiting on a response.
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I agree that a vet hospital with specialists (R&R, vet schools, et al) is the way to go. While I agree generally that sometimes you can treat empirically and call it a day if the treatment works, I tend to err towards diagnostics. And this one sounds like a head scratcher.
A lot of people are comfortable treating empirically, but I have big regrets having done so with a cat previously. Necropsy after I lost her showed that we were way off base and even though what we were treating (hypercalcemia) had apparently improved, it wasn’t idiopathic. It turns out that the true issue (Small Cell Lymphoma) was behind the hypercalcemia of malignancy and that it actually would have been quite treatable with appropriate diagnostics. Vet was certain it was IBD, not small cell… and that the hypercalcemia was idiopathic. I suppose we could have treated the SCL empirically with a better outcome. Cat had a lot of other comorbidities, but I felt terrible in hindsight.
Weighing risk/reward and invasiveness of diagnostics against the benefits, unless something is mind-numbingly expensive or would be too risky for horse (or cat or dog or human), I usually go with the diagnostics. That said, I did forego additional diagnostics after my last saga with my horse, as the fishing expedition would have been $$$ and hard to find (standing CT), or too invasive or risky (flap surgery or recumbent CT under general anesthesia) to justify.
Anyways, everyone has their own calculi, but just wanted to put that out there regarding treating empirically with drugs.
ETA: TLDR, I like to “know my enemy”.
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Thank you for responding, very good advice. And I am so sorry about your cat.
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Thank you! She taught me a lot. She was blind (Aqueous Misdirection Syndrome, a super rare disease, veterinary optometrist in NYC sees 5 a year, always unilateral and hers was bilateral), pancreatitis, CKD, cholecystitis, small cell… and I am sure I am missing something. But she was young and happy and comfortable on meds until the end. It was sad. The CKD made her a bad candidate for biopsy, but I have regrets.
ETA: heart murmur that cardiologist deemed benign.
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Poor thing. She was lucky to have someone who cared so much for her and took such good care of her. I lost my heart dog a little over a year ago. She started having seizures when she was 3. The barometric pressure seemed to be a factor so I would watch the weather like a hawk to determine when to increase her meds and hopefully keep the seizures from starting. Until I couldn’t anymore and they came anyway. I have so many regrets about that last day. Even though it’s been over a year, my heart still hurts. We just do the best we can for them and consider our time together a gift.
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I hear you. I didn’t get out of bed for a month after I lost Bergen (the cat). I won’t have another dog anytime soon after Winston and Marley. I worry about horse sport with my yellow marvel. I just try to take every experience and be a better advocate if I can!
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That is really strange. I would recommend seeing if New Bolton would review the video. It’s such an odd case, I wonder if they’d consult even without charging a lot just because it’s so very odd.
At all other times is his penis normal? When he drops to pee does he do it without any difficulty? When you clean it does be react abnormally? Does he pee more than normal?
And this is very very random but anything like signs of narcolepsy? I’m wondering if he’s sometimes getting a pinched nerve and this is his response.
Has his neck ever been xrayed?
Possibly PSSM2?!
If he was a mare I’d almost wonder if he was getting air up the nether region and was bothered by it. In terms of the but tuck and scoot, that’s how my mare reacts if I accidentally get water in her vulva when she’s being hosed off.
This is really very odd and I’m sorry for you and him.
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Can horses get cauda equina syndrome??!! If a person had weird symptoms including urinary ones and I suspected spine involvement that would be near the top of my guesses. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of a horse having that?
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Yes, they can… I had one. It is also called polyneuritis equi as it can affect not only hind end but also cranial nerves. I didn’t mention it in my earlier post, because the video did not look anything like my horse, and she said there were no other neuro symptoms or muscle loss. My horse had both head and hind end symptoms. BUT as I re-read and think about the dribbling, maybe… Its rare and mostly diagnosed by elimination, and confirmed by necropsy.
In my case, cranial MRI showed thickening/issues in the nerves, with no associated indication of trauma. Visible muscle loss in hind end and some ataxia but no incontinence.
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I had considered that, and it is certainly possible.
It has been renamed as polyneuritis equi.
It typically presents as a progressive paralysis with urinary incontinence, though, so this isn’t a textbook case.
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Everything about this case seems weird. This seems like it might be a zebra!
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Right?? I keep hoping it is something super simple that can be ‘fixed’ and we can get back to riding, training and building our partnership.
sent you a message.
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The only time I saw something similar the horse had a retained testicle. Is that a possibility?
I give you great credit for what you have gone through trying to find a cause for this behaviour. What a journey you have been on! Please, keep us updated.
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I actually have a similar issue with my horse and haven’t figured it out completely but it’s not affecting his ride ability. About a year ago he was adjusted by an osteopath who did a lot in his SI and hind end area and he was super lame right after. Took about a week to become mostly normal and vet meds. When the farrier shod him the next time everytime he put a hoof up on the stand he would drop hump and drip. Weirdly if we cover his eyes he doesn’t do it. He does drop when I curry his SI area. He’s been checked by my vet he’s sound and rideable and loves having a job. He does need to be in constant work for his SI and stifles or else he becomes nqr. He raced heavily so it’s kind of expected. Currently he only drops and humps for the farrier maybe every 4-5shoeings. I just switched farriers and it’s a super awkward conversation and I make sure to be there for his appointment.
Just a thought have you done a true bute trial to see if he’s any better? That might narrow it down to pain.
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Not sure if this has anything to do with your situation, but in a somewhat related vein…
I was helping my vet collect a sport horse stallion two weeks ago. She had collected him dozens of times over the past 18 months; he didn’t always have the greatest % motility but he was a simple, straightforward stallion to manage. On that day, when he ejaculated the sample was FULL of urine. She thought maybe he just had to pee, so we waited an hour or more (he did not urinate despite our attempts of fresh shavings, etc). Tried again, and AGAIN he urinated in the ejaculate. Otherwise the breeding attempts were normal (one jump, well-coordinated, nothing out of ordinary). My vet told me that sometimes this can be a symptom of EPM in stallions-- their bladder function can be the first to go. He showed no other neuro symptoms, rider confirmed he feels fine under saddle and nothing unusual otherwise. Vet pulled blood to check for EPM. Stallion came back the next day to collect again, and this time the sample was normal (no urine) with good motility. Maybe it was a one-off thing with a full bladder and he just couldn’t hold it, but I thought it might be relevant to OP that bladder control & ejaculation could be related to EPM symptoms.
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I haven’t read through all of the replies, so there is a very good chance what I have to contribute has already been mentioned. This sounds spinal to me. There have been studies about spinal issues and erections/sexual dysfunction, along with bladder issues. This has been seen with fractures and malformations, and I am sure other issues that I can no longer remember, and I think it had to do with nerve compression. I hope you figure this out soon!
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I am going to check out New Bolton and reach out to them. I appreciate this advice. Truly is odd. He looks physically healthy on the outside.
I have one video of him urinating and it looked to me that it took him a bit to get going. Though I am no expert in how long it should take? I have been told by someone at my barn that she has seen him straining to urinate. He does not urinate in his stall, but he is usually only in for feed and then back out.
I do wonder if having a full bladder is playing into this? When I attempted to ride him (seen in the video) he had come in for AM feed and had not urinated. So maybe his bladder was full?
I haven’t personally cleaned his sheath. This has been done several times but always under anesthesia.
No signs of narcolepsy. This guy is almost alway on alert.
Neck has not been x-rayed. When I got him, he carried his head very high. Due to my lack of experience, I didn’t have any concerns. A couple of trainers I have worked with have suggested that he was tied down. We have worked to get him to lower his head under saddle and saw brief moments of it. It just never seemed like he could fully relax. Since I have been focusing on ground work and working to get his focus on me and feeling that being with me is a safe place to be, he has gotten MUCH better about a more relaxed headset, but it doesn’t come naturally to him.
Have not spend the $$ to test for PSSM2. It is a possibility. I just think I would be seeing more symptoms. I didn’t know about PSSM until after I got him but it was one of the reasons I switched him to a forage only diet.
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Thank you so much for taking the time to view the post & video and responding. Mechanically speaking, it does seem that a compressed nerve would make sense. If that is the case, I don’t know if there is a solution for it, assuming one could find the location of the compression.
