New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[Alterration]

@sascha

We all know what flipping a horse means and that it is dangerous to riders, handlers, horses and is potentially fatal to all, and that it is not a euphemism for ask stronger.

Could a young person, infatuated with a high-level trainer not know about flipping and maybe take it to be a euphemism? Sure, but we owe it to the unknowing to educate them. Flipping was (and may still be - Parra, Clinton, joe cowboy, etc.) a known and semi-legitimate ‘training method’ for particularly difficult horses - runaways and rearers.

Could someone who has been around as long as Prudent not know? Only if they lived under a rock and never spoke to another person in the industry.

While I agree that generally speaking flipping horses means one thing, that’s not the context in which it was said. It’s very clear when the clip is watched that she said it just like saying “run him into the wall” or “sit him on his a**”.

Should she have said it? No - it was debated ad nauseum on the other thread. But it was not in a context of a behavioral issue like you’ve mentioned with CA or Parra.

Horse just was not stopping at the wall. Rider was letting him squirt off left or right. She said something along the lines of “stop him at the wall!” after rider continued letting him squirt left or right and then muttered as she turned away that “he wouldn’t have done that with me, I’d have flipped him over”.

Still harsh, but not horse flipping in the way that CA is talking about flipping a horse.

Now - could some young kid watching the clinic not have understood it, googled it, and tried flipping them a la CA or joe cowboy? It’s a possibility. But it’s also a possibility that some young kid would have seen horses jumping difficult grids and decided to set some huge fences up for their backyard pony and flipped them over with a rotational fall that pony wasn’t prepared to handle. The latter is actually more likely (having done similarly stupid things as a kid, though I never flipped a horse over).

Regardless - I feel like we’re talking about apples and rocket ships - not even close enough to the same situation to call them oranges.

[DownYonder]

Just seen on FB. It can definitely apply in this situation. Thank God for Adam and Sven for having the courage to speak up.

[PaddockWood]

Is this him? This video literally turns my stomach.

Cesar Parra this is NOT dressage this IS abuse

[PaddockWood]

@SLW

Those are so disturbing, especially the second one as you see panic settle into the horse.

OMG that video with the ropes attached to the front feet and that beautiful creature TRYING and how anyone can treat a horse like that? SICK SICK SICK

[Alterration]

Yes. It appears to be a compilation of many of the videos posted, except the running W and stretchies video.

[Cowgirl]

In horse sports where gaits are the focus (i.e. gaited horse sports) is where you see tons of gadgets to artificially inflate the gaits, and abuse like putting ginger in the anus, breaking over tail bones, stacking and weighting hooves. Why ever would the PTB want the sport to go in this direction and how do we get it turned around? You can’t remove the PTB, can you?

[sascha]

@Alterration

“he wouldn’t have done that with me, I’d have flipped him over”.

Still harsh, but not horse flipping in the way that CA is talking about flipping a horse.

I saw the video. I heard the remark. It was absolutely 100% about actually flipping a horse. 100% Thinking that English trainers of Prudent’s status wouldn’t do such a thing because they are English riders and of a certain stature is naive to say the least. She was not talking about flipping the horse the bird, or selling it as a flip.

[Alterration]

Just a point of information - tails are not broken. They are set with a small incision done typically by a veterinarian. Not something I endorse, but not broken. More and more trainers are stretching tails instead of cutting them. In ASBs anyway, can’t speak to gaited horses, which ASBs are not.

Interestingly, in saddlebred-land the pressure to change has come from the competitors and not from the judges. I see more and more competitors in the flat shod divisions (Country Pleasure, Hunter, Western, Ranch) than I do in the performance divisions that might wear a bigger shoe and a pad (they do not stack either - though it looks similar to those not in the same world).

Judges are still judging the performance divisions (bigger shoe/pad) the same way, but you might see 1-2 horses in each division vs the 20-30 in some of the others. I think that’s telling.

Again, can’t speak to Walkers, Rocky Mountains or other types of gaited horse. But ASBs are often lumped in with them and I wanted to correct the record.

Not saying that dressage should emulate this in any way shape or form…except perhaps the pressure from competitors.

[LSBC]

I have lessoned with a lot of trainers. I have once viewed my trainers as the be-all end-all, all-knowing, can’t say anything wrong people. Even with that viewpoint, if they had told me to flip my horse over I would not have done it. I genuinely cannot comprehend the idea that someone would think “Ah, she told another girl that she would be flipping the horse over so I have to flip mine if he doesn’t listen.” She didn’t even say that she should flip him over. Just that she would be. I feel like we have to give people more credit in this case. Whereas, if I saw a trainer actually flipping horses, or being aggressive, that is easier to pass on to someone else because we know the trainer uses that technique.

[Alterration]

@sascha

I saw the video. I heard the remark. It was absolutely 100% about actually flipping a horse. 100% Thinking that English trainers of Prudent’s status wouldn’t do such a thing because they are English riders and of a certain stature is naive to say the least. She was not talking about flipping the horse the bird, or selling it as a flip.

No - I’m not suggesting those two definitions.

I’m suggesting that what she was trying to say was “sit him on his a&&” or “pull on his mouth very strongly” which is NOT the same thing as CA or Parra.

Because said rider was doing neither thing. Said rider was allowing the horse to not halt.

[sascha]

@LSBC

“Ah, she told another girl that she would be flipping the horse over so I have to flip mine if he doesn’t listen.” She didn’t even say that she should flip him over. Just that she would be .

That she would be is exactly the point! Basically you have a (formerly?) well-respected trainer admitting out loud at a well-attended high-level event that they would flip a horse.

That someone may take that remark and act on it is bad, for sure, but I have less worry about that because you need to learn how to do it. But the point is that she basically admitted publicly that such treatment of a horse is acceptable.

[Alterration]

And I’ll just add - ACTUALLY flipping a horse is not an easy thing to do.

A horse who is already rearing, sure - you can pull them over very easily. But in the past, I’ve pulled with all of my might on a jumper who was running away with me like a freight train, and I barely registered a head toss. Jockeys pull very hard as the thoroughbred runs, and they aren’t flipping over like burgers.

One might argue that horse needed some reschooling, but that was 20 years ago.

Flipping a horse a la CA is rigging them up so that they flip and go down OR setting the horse up in a specific way that they are light up front and then pulling so that they go down. Either way - it’s not easy to do and one has to be quite intentional in doing it.

[sascha]

@Alterration

I’m suggesting that what she was trying to say was “sit him on his a&&” or “pull on his mouth very strongly” which is NOT the same thing as CA or Parra.

What she said was ride him into the wall in terms of instruction to the rider. Whatever. I think that’s very crappy instruction but that is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the actual remark where she said she would flip the horse. That IS the same thing as Clinton Anderson, Parra, joe cowboy, et al.

[Debbie_D]

Here is a post from a courageous German woman who experienced the Parra wrath when she was employed there! I sure do hope that her case that was dismissed by Safe Sport apparently in early 2023 will be reopened!

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/nTaMyHnhqrXxt7F9/?mibextid=2JQ9oc

[sascha]

@Alterration

ACTUALLY flipping a horse is not an easy thing to do

There are ways that are really not that difficult. The horse does not need to be rearing already. Does it work on a horse that is already bolting? Not until they slow down, but the ‘point’ of the flip is to exert sufficient power and shock on the horse that it thinks twice before it ever goes up or bolts again - that it gains some sort of awe of the trainer. It’s obscene, but not that hard if the ‘skills’ have been imparted.

[Alterration]

@sascha

What she said was ride him into the wall in terms of instruction to the rider. Whatever. I think that’s very crappy instruction but that is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the actual remark where she said she would flip the horse. That IS the same thing as Clinton Anderson, Parra, joe cowboy, et al.

She wanted her to halt straight at the wall. This is a very common jumper exercise. Rider was not doing so. She had explained it prior to the setup.

Flipping a horse to “solve” a behavioral issue is very different than “pull on his mouth hard enough to flip him over” which WAS the exaggeration that she meant. She wanted the rider to stop the horse. The rider was not pulling on his mouth, nor was she even truly attempting to stop him. That rider did NOT have the strength to flip him over, nor did KMP, tbh.

Again - she shouldn’t have said it, but to pretend that she meant it like CA did, I just don’t buy. And I’ve seen CA in person - he’s a totally different animal than KMP.

I was around a “trainer” when I was 18 (more years ago than I’d care to admit) who thought flipping a horse was the answer to behavioral issues. He was not a BNT by any stretch of the imagination (he ran a trail string). It was quite a todo, he had to tie a leg up, send the horse forward, catch it off guard and flip it over. It required timing. I was horrified, and certainly never saw it as a viable training method since I couldn’t connect it with the horse’s actual issue (young horse, spooking on the trail). I’ve done a lot of stupid things with horses, but I was never influenced to do anything like that.

Again - not something she should have said in this day and age, but it’s definitely not a stretch to understand. Not even remotely.

[oldernewbie]

Same conditions for Arabs and Morgans. Sport horse divisions in both continue to grow. Ranch riding is huge. Western dressage is growing. Divisions that require more artificiality are shrinking except at the national shows. Not a bad trend, hope it continues.

[Alterration]

@oldernewbie

Same conditions for Arabs and Morgans. Sport horse divisions in both continue to grow. Ranch riding is huge. Western dressage is growing. Divisions that require more artificiality are shrinking except at the national shows. Not a bad trend, hope it continues.

Me too. It is interesting that the pressure is coming from competitors and not the powers-that-be (which I think is what PTB means?).

I’m trying to think of how to leverage that kind of thinking in dressage-land and the only thing I can think of is to have tests that don’t involve gaits. Or, to have diminishing interest in rated dressage.

[sascha]

@Alterration

It was quite a todo, he had to tie a leg up, send the horse forward, catch it off guard and flip it over.

It is not that hard and does not require tying up a leg.

Taking the word “flip” for “do some dental work if necessary to get that horse stopped NOW” is quite the stretch.

And yes, I am quite familiar with using a wall to stop a horse. It can be done right (in emergency and then the trainer goes back and fixes the giant gaping hole in training). I’m fixing one right now that instead of getting educated got ridden into the wall so many times a fear of the wall developed.

[Mondo]

@Alterration

But ASBs are often lumped in with them and I wanted to correct the record.

Saddlebreds can be 5 gaited. That qualifies as a “gaited” breed. They even have separate divisions for 3-gaited and 5-gaited saddlers. And they may not set tails, but they certainly do use many inhumane tactics.